The Strength of Mentorship for Nonprofit Professionals
One of the best ways to grow and develop as a professional is through mentorship, either seeking out a mentor for yourself or serving as one for a colleague. In this webinar, Lisa M. Chmiola, CFRE and Dave Tinker, CFRE, FAFP will discuss finding and establishing these important relationships, and how to cultivate them to maximize success and impact in your work.
Steven: All right. Lisa. Dave, is it okay if I go ahead and get us started officially here?
Dave: Yeah, absolutely.
Steven: All right. Awesome. Well, good afternoon, everybody. Good morning, if you’re on the West Coast, I should say. And if you’re watching the recording, I hope you’re having a good day no matter where you are, when you are. We are here to talk about mentorship, the strength of mentoring for nonprofit professionals. I love this topic. I’ve been excited about this one for a long time. Welcome. I’m so glad to have you all here.
I’m Steven over here at Bloomerang, and I’ll be moderating today’s chat as always. And just a couple of quick housekeeping items. I just want to let you all know that we are recording and we’ll be sending out the recording and the slides later on this afternoon. So, if you have to leave early or, you know, maybe you miss something you want to share with a friend, maybe a toddler interrupts you, I understand. No worry. We’ll get all that good stuff to you later on today.
But most importantly, as you’re listening, we’d love to hear from you. I know a lot of you already chatted in. That’s awesome. We’d love to hear from you. We’re going to save some time at the end for Q&A. So don’t be shy. Don’t sit on those hands. We’ll try and get to as many questions as we can before the 3:00 Eastern hour. You can do that on Twitter. We’ve got three Twitter people right here. I mean, this is great. So we’re used to it.
So send us a tweet before, after, during. I guess not before, it’s too late for before, but you know what I mean? We’d love to hear from you is what I’m trying to say. If this is your first Bloomerang webinar, welcome. We love doing these webinars. We do them just about every Thursday. Sometimes, more often than that. If you’re on this one, you’re going to get invited to all future sessions until you tell me to stop. So you’re in a good place.
But if you’ve never heard of Bloomerang, beyond the webinars, what we’re most known for is our donor management software. So, if you’re interested in that, check us out. You know, you can visit our website. We’re pretty easy to find. There’s lots of videos there you can watch. So, if you’re interested in that, don’t do that right now, at least wait an hour. We’ve got two of my favorites here. Wow, I’m so excited for this one. This is like a dream team. My buddy, Lisa, and Dave. Lisa, New Orleans. Dave, you’re in Pittsburgh. How you doing? You doing okay? Everybody doing good?
Lisa: Yeah. It’s almost Friday.
Steven: That’s right. That’s why I do it on Thursdays. because we get to say that. It’s great. Wow. This is fun to have you. This is like a dynamic duo. You know, in a normal year, I would have seen you all a bunch of times, but we’ll have to make do with the webinar. If you all don’t know Lisa and Dave, you’re going to want to know them after this session. Check out Lisa over at Fablanthropy. She has been a good buddy of mine. She’s also been contributing some really awesome advice to the Bloomerang blog. So check that out. We’ll send a link to that. Really, really nice advice there. She’s been doing this for almost 20 years, knows her stuff.
Dave, check him out. He’s the VP of Advancement over at Achieva. He also helps out at Goalbusters, which is a really awesome agency as well, and is doing really cool stuff. I got to sit on a case study presentation of his, I think last year on some of the fundraising that the Tree of Life synagogue has been doing and some other volunteer stuff that he’s been up to. Also, a ton of years of experience. One thing I look for in my guests is, you know, they’ve been in your shoes. So I’m going to pipe down. I’ve already used up way too much of their time. You guys don’t want to hear from me.
So, Lisa, I’m going to stop sharing and I’ll let you bring up your beautiful slides here. We’ll see if we can get it going.
Lisa: Sounds like a plan.
Steven: Looks like it’s starting to work. Okay. Go for it.
Lisa: Well, and we are glad to be here today. As Steven said, you know, briefly introduced Dave and myself, but just to give you a little background on us, we wouldn’t be here today if it wasn’t for mentorship itself. So, Dave, who has been involved in AFP for a bit longer than I have, reached out to me about 10 years ago and offered to mentor me. He was attending the AFP conference. I believe it was in Chicago that year. I did not have the chance to attend it that year.
I was stuck at home having some FOMO and watching all the fun that was going on. Had attended a few conferences, but had never presented. And so, when the call for proposals came up very shortly afterwards, he reached out to me and said, “Hey, would you be interested? There’s an initiative where previous presenters are encouraged to pair up with a person who has not presented before.” And I said, “Absolutely.”
So Dave and I worked completely remotely and did not meet in person until about three days before our presentation in Vancouver that following year. So mentorship via WebEx, via social media, calls, emails, chats, everything. So what more appropriate time than right in the middle of National Mentoring Month to be able to give you today’s presentation?
We will talk a little bit about what mentorship is. We’ll highlight some benefits for both the mentor and the mentee. Talk some about how and where to find a mentor for both some formal and informal ways to do that. How you can make the best of a mentorship relationship, no matter which side you’re on. We will touch on some changes that we’ve seen in the mentoring relationships due to the pandemic. And also cover if you need a mentor, a coach, or both to maximize your professional development.
And we are going to be sharing a lot of articles and books, additional resources. Don’t worry about copying all that down. As Steven said, you’ll not only have an opportunity to see the slides afterwards, but on the final slide, you’ll see there will be a link on my website, fablanthropy.com, where you can go and get all the hyperlinks to the books and the articles that we cover.
Dave: So one of the things we want to start off with was a quote. It’s one of my favorite quotes. And, you know, “What we have loved, others love, and we will teach them how . . . ” And this is William Wordsworth from “The Prelude.” It’s one of those things that, you know, and when you look at it from the mentoring point of view, you know, we do what we love, especially in nonprofit and fundraising.
And, you know, typically, you know, we want others to love what we do and we want to share, and we’re almost always really willing to share with others. And we’re going to teach them how because we’re going to show them the right way. You know, this is a quote that, you know, I was first introduced to, by Paul Pribbenow from Augsburg College. You know, he has a regular newsletter called “The Reflective Practitioner,” and he always starts it off with this quote. And I just feel like it’s been, you know, very powerful for at least me and hopefully for you too.
So what is mentorship? And mentorship can be a lot of things. A couple of key things that you, you know, it can be, I mean, obviously, it’s somebody that has some knowledge that’s sharing it with somebody that wants to learn that knowledge. And they don’t always want to learn it but, you know, it’s something that you do want to do. You know, mentorship can be a lot of things. I’ve had number of mentors and I’ve had a number of mentees.
A couple of the key people that have been mentors in my life from teaching, you know, because I’m an adjunct and I have been for the past decade in a graduate program, it was [Doyt Perry 00:07:23], who’s passed away, but he was always very helpful in guiding me along, giving me pointers, and very informally, but it was a way to do that. And then I’ve had a little more formal type of mentors.
My first mentor was Bob Thompson, who was the CEO of [inaudible 00:07:41] Fundraising Council more than 30 years ago now. And Bob was somebody who really guided me towards the fundraising career and encouraged me gently to do stuff, but he would bring me along and talk to me and check in every so often to see how it was going. And he was always a knowledge base that I could always ask questions. And he gave me materials, like, I have books and other things that he used to share with me all the time.
And a key mentor I’ve had as [Lilya Wagner 00:08:09]. Lilya is somebody that I worked with. And so she used to take me to meetings so I could meet people. And it wasn’t just meetings with donors, but then she took me to my first AFP International Conference more than 25 years ago and she introduced me to all these leaders.
And I had met some through my graduate program, but then I got to meet many more, and I still get to see some of them at meetings when we can meet in person. But she’s somebody who, throughout the past 25 years, is still my mentor, I still consider my mentor. We reach out. You know, it went from being a more formal type of thing because I was working with her to more of a friendship.
You know, we were each other’s dog sitters and we still send cards. And actually, one of my daughters is actually named after her. And that’s how much she’s meant to me in my career and in my life. So there’s lots of different things in between. And mentoring can be a lot of different things.
Lisa: Right. And so Dave and I will both share some examples of how we have either benefited from a mentor or served as a mentor ourselves. And we’re fortunate enough to also have a case study to share with you. You see the holiday card there over to the side. And that came from our good friend, Beth Ann Locke, who is a fellow AFP. She is a consultant and the card was sent to her by her mentee, Laura Cleveland.
And they were both formally matched through their AFP Chapters program. In 2018, through the greater Vancouver chapter, they were matched for one year to be mentor and mentee. They had such a wonderful experience that they have continued their relationship to this day. And so to give you a little bit of their backstory, and we’ll share a little bit about the benefits that they have seen from their relationship as well, Laura said she had joined the mentorship program hoping to find perspective from a more experienced fundraiser, being fairly new to the industry.
Beth Ann had joined because she had hoped to have had a similar experience like that early in her career. She didn’t really have an opportunity for that early on, but during the mid-part of her career, she had a boss who had served as a fabulous mentor to her. And so she wanted to join the mentor program in her chapter and pay it forward. And Laura was one of several mentees that she’s worked with through her chapter.
In coming into the program, Laura said she wanted to learn more about fundraising in general, but specifically on major gifts and leadership, given her role. And then Beth Ann said she wanted to not only share her experience as a mentor and that expertise, but also hope to learn a little bit more about what her mentee was learning and experiencing throughout her role.
So, to start off with the mentee and talking about benefits that you would experience through a mentorship relationship, you’ll have an opportunity to gain valuable advice. Your mentor can give lots of insight. They can serve as a sounding board. A lot of times, they’ve often been in your shoes and through the same situations, and they could offer advice on how they may have handled it. And it might be some different perspective that you would’ve considered.
For me, when I was working in educational fundraising, I had an opportunity when I worked in a university to be mentored by the Director of Planned Giving. And I learned a lot about gift planning principles from him, especially the concept of the more that you can get a donor to visualize the impact that their planned gift will make when they are no longer here to actually see the impact and to document that, then they may actually be inspired to increase their current giving. I took that knowledge with me to another organization where I served as the Director of Planned Giving and in working with the donor to document what she wanted to create out of her estate as an endowed scholarship.
She was so excited about the impact that when she had an opportunity and received a cash windfall, she decided to go ahead and fund the endowment so that she’d have the opportunity to meet a scholarship recipient while she was still living. So that advice that I had been given from a mentor, I was able to put that into action and make an impact. And then we had students receiving scholarships. So that was fantastic.
Being a mentee, you’ll also have an opportunity to develop your knowledge and skills. And that will come either from your mentor teaching a concept to you or perhaps suggesting resources to you. So, again, back to the situation where I was being mentored to learn planned giving early in that phase of my career, my mentor had suggested that I joined the local council of the National Association of Charitable Gift Planners.
That provided me much basic information on planned giving and it’s actually led to now I serve in leadership roles with the organization. Being a mentee, you’ll have an opportunity to improve your communication skills. Both you and your mentor are going to learn to communicate with somebody who has different styles than you. You may have to communicate in different ways than you’re used to.
And so this will not only help you at work with your colleagues, it will help you be a better communicator with your donors. It can even help you in your personal life. And it also offers you an opportunity to learn a new perspective. Again, a different way of thinking and how somebody may approach something differently than you, that could end up being the real benefit.
When you are a mentee and being mentored, you will have a great opportunity to build your network. You’ll not only get to learn your mentor, you’ll also have an opportunity perhaps to meet their colleagues and their mentors. And, kind of, you know, like Dave had said, you know, with Lilya taking him to the conference and introducing him to all sorts of different professionals.
And then even, at times, you’ll experience that you may ask your mentor something and they may have a knowledge limit of what they know. And so they could potentially connect you with somebody in their network that knows something further.
So let’s say I was in a mentor situation and I had a mentee come to me on a certain type of planned gift that perhaps I hadn’t dealt with before. I have a great mentor, Kent Weimer, he’s at the Parkland Hospital Foundation in Dallas and he’s a past chair of the National Charitable Gift Planners. He is my planned giving mentor currently because he has dealt with a variety of complex planned gifts, over 20 plus years in that specific part of the industry. So, if I had someone come to me with a complicated type of gift that I may not have personally dealt with before, I might bring Kent into the situation. So then that would expand the network for my mentee as well.
And then advancing your career. By raising your hand and showing that you’re interested in learning more and growing, this will help you stay focused and stay on track in your career. You’ll receive valuable advice, skill development, networking, and so much more.
So, for Laura, when we asked her what she saw as the benefits of mentorship, she felt that not only did she gain a mentor, an opportunity to learn more about fundraising and to continue to grow in that way, but she and Beth Ann became friends. Just like Dave had said, and just like Dave and I have become over the past decade. The more that you get to know somebody and truly develop that relationship, you get to share the highs and the lows. It’s just a wonderful opportunity. And she also said she’s received some helpful constructive feedback and even as far as compensation matters and negotiating that, she’s found very much helpful.
For the mentor, there are benefits for you as well, serving in this relationship. This is an opportunity for you to build your leadership skills. If you’re seeking management opportunities in your organization, perhaps in a volunteer organization, this is an opportunity for you to provide guidance, to learn that new skill set, to help your mentee learn, but not necessarily tell them exactly what to do. It’s another opportunity to do what we do so well with donors, is to practice that active listening skill.
And so it does tie into you also have the opportunity, just like your mentee, to improve your communication skills and learn new perspectives. This will also give you an opportunity to advance your career especially, again, if you’re trying to move into management or leadership at your organization. It shows that you have initiative. It shows that you’re willing to go above and beyond your job description to help benefit your industry and your organization.
And quite frankly, I feel like this is one of my favorite benefits, as having served as a mentor myself, is that gain of personal satisfaction knowing that you have contributed to someone’s growth and development. Seeing your mentee’s success as a result of your input and your partnership is so rewarding. And that is actually one of the rewards that Beth Ann said that she’s experienced as well, serving as a mentor.
But not only has she benefited by seeing that personal satisfaction from Laura’s growth, she felt that, in turn, Laura had a lot of great advice and insights back for her, not only when she was a fundraiser within an organization, but now that she is working as a consultant, just to take that growth and that strength and to take Laura’s advice back to her.
Dave: So another quote that we came across that we wanted to share is, “Mentoring is a critical part of personal growth and development.” And it’s important to remember, as a mentor, that it’s actually, you know, part of what you should be doing. You should be sharing the information that you have learned, and sharing it with the next generation or the next group of people who want to learn ethical fundraising or best practices in nonprofit management. And this is just a quote that reflects on that. Yeah.
Lisa: So we’ve talked some about the benefits and how being a mentor or a mentee helps to continue to grow our industry and our career. How do you find that good mentor? First, you really need to do a little bit of homework. Sit back and think about what you want out of your career. What are your career goals? Where do you want to go? Maybe think about who has your dream job and would that person be open to serving as a mentor for you?
Likewise, if you’re a more seasoned professional, perhaps seeking out newer colleagues to the industry, maybe even those who have followed a similar path in as you so that you could offer that guidance. And that actually is how, when I was in graduate school, I chose, kind of, in reverse, I chose my mentor for my thesis because she had a similar path into the industry as me.
She originally was a print journalist and then moved into public relations and then moved into fundraising and development work. And that was my exact career path. So I sought her out to be my mentor because I thought she would have a lot to offer in putting together my studies. And she certainly did.
Dave: And if I could add, you know, sometimes, the mentor, we always traditionally think it’s somebody that’s older, the mentor can be somebody that’s younger than you. I’ve had a mentee that was older than me. I’m not going to say how many years, but a couple. But I had knowledge that she wanted to learn more about and I was more than happy to help, and I got to learn from her too at the same time.
Lisa: Absolutely. Next, you want to reflect on if you are ready for a mentorship relationship. You truly want to know your why. Are you willing to work hard, be flexible? Are you open to feedback and criticism? Are you respectful? In order to succeed in this relationship, you want to be actively building your skills and looking to advance and grow in your career. So, as far as looking for a mentor informally, we would encourage you to look within your network.
Again, thinking back to if you’re approaching someone who has a dream job, maybe there’s someone in your network that’s already connected to them. But even if not, go ahead and do your research. We really think that the donor process here, what we do when we’re preparing a prospect list to solicit for funds for our organization, you know, creating that list of people who might be good mentors or mentees, preparing for the ask, doing your research.
If it is somebody that you don’t have a relationship with, you might set up an informational interview with them just even to find out if they would be a good candidate for a mentor or a mentee with you. And it may take several conversations. Don’t think that you’re just going to walk up to the person immediately and say, “Hi, would you be my mentor?” You want to really get to know them and find out if the relationship is the right fit for both of you.
On the formal side, there are a lot of organizations that do run formal mentorship programs. We highlighted the greater Vancouver Chapter of AFP, a lot of other AFP Chapters across the country and around the world have their own mentorship programs. Other professional associations do run mentorship programs. Sometimes, organizations will run them within and they’ll match up employees that are more experienced with those that are less experienced.
Or even working through educational opportunities. I know the Rice University Center for Philanthropy & Nonprofit Leadership, as part of some of their courses in leadership and in fund development, they offer the opportunity for the students to be paired up with a mentor to help them work on their program.
And we’d be remiss if we didn’t point out there is a deadline tomorrow for two formal programs that are being run by AFP Global, both for the Emerging Leaders program, as well as the Women’s Impact Initiative. And so, in the links at the end, we have a link to an article from Mike Geiger, the CEO of AFP Global, talking about the importance of mentorship, but also offering a link to those two programs if you’re interested to apply either as a mentee or as a mentor, because they’re looking for both.
Dave: So one of the quotes that we came across for mentees was this great one. You know, “We are what our great mentors have taught us.” And this is from Lailah Akita, who was a woman that founded, she’s a younger professional, founded a nonprofit but, you know, you’re gathering things from the mentors who, you know, are providing information that you want to learn. And you have to remember, you know, that information that you’re getting, in addition to the stuff you’re learning on your own, is what helps you go forward.
So, you know, how to be a good mentee. And there’s a lot of different things. But the first thing that you need to remember is that your mentee is a volunteer. A mentee is somebody that is doing this in addition to their work, in addition to their own life, in addition to their board service and other committees that they might be on. So you need to remember that. You know, you need to take some responsibility for your own learning as well.
As a mentee, going into things, you know, it’s not just what the mentor is going to tell you, but maybe you come across materials, whether it’s a book or a webinar or a class that you want to learn more about, but you need to do some work on your own in addition to working with the mentor to get the best out of and get as much as you can to help you reach and achieve the goal that you’re trying to reach through the mentoring program.
One of the things you really should do is develop trust. And Lisa talked about that a little bit. But, you know, Patrick Lencioni, who wrote “Five Dysfunctions of a Team,” you know, the baseline thing that was missing in dysfunctional teams was trust. We need trust. Just like the donors need to trust us before they’re willing to make a gift, you need to trust each other.
One of the things that I do when I first meet with mentees is, I tell them, you know, even though we likely know a lot of people in common, whether it’s somebody that’s in my region or somebody that we’re doing it virtually, know that I’m not going to share what they want to say. I want them to feel like they can open up to me and have trust in what they say to me that I’m going to keep it in confidence.
And hopefully, that’s the same with them, that the mentee will also keep stuff in confidence from what the mentor shares. But it’s very important that you build that trust so that that relationship grows, both professionally and possibly personally. You need to be respectful of time. Again, you know, both of you have time and you’re both carving out time out of your schedules to do some more professional development, which is a lot what mentoring is. But you want to make sure that, you know, you’re not late for meetings, you don’t cancel a lot, but you’re able to attend to things that you say you’re going to do and be responsible for them.
And then set realistic expectations. You’re not going to go from being an intern to a CEO and a six-month mentorship. You’re going to need to take time to learn things. And be realistic about what it is that you can get out of it. I mean, sometimes, you can put a lot of time into it but, sometimes, you know, if you meet once a month, you know, that’s not quite the same.
So continued being good mentee. You know, when you go to meetings with your mentor, go in with a prepared agenda, with things that you want to discuss, making sure that they align with the goals that you have, your career goals, and the goals of the mentoring program that you want to get out of it. And it takes a little bit of time just to prepare, but that will keep you on track and help build up your mentoring.
Be open about your needs and provide feedback. Again, this is communication. Make sure that, you know, you’re sharing and communicating what your needs are and what you want to try to get out of it. And if it’s going great, provide that feedback. But if it’s not going the way you want, provide that feedback too.
If it’s a formal mentoring program through an association, hopefully, that they’re asking you, you know, “Is it going okay? Is it not? Do you need to be rematched with somebody else? Or is this going great and you can continue on?” But make sure that you’re providing feedback so you know if you’re reaching goals or not.
Recognize your mentor’s limitations. That’s important because if you’re trying to learn things that are specific, you know, you want to learn a lot more about special events and fundraising, but you’re talking to somebody that’s your mentor that does prospect research, they might not know as much about special events. And that might not be the best fit for just that part of it, but they can teach you lots of other things. And that’s important. But remember, you need to remember that there are limitations to things.
Stretch. This is something I tell students a lot. But the more you deal with a little bit of risk, you do new things, the better you’re going to feel with the outcome. I mean, yeah, there’s a little bit of risk. So, sometimes, you learn that that’s not the right solution. But oftentimes, when you do get out of your comfort zone, that’s when you start really learning a lot more.
It reminds me of an article, when we were preparing this, an article that I read from Diana Nelson Jones from “The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette,” back when newspapers were a daily thing in print, but she is a columnist. And Pittsburgh has 90 distinct neighborhoods in the city and she was writing an article about each week about a different neighborhood. And so that forced her to get out of the rut of going into the office the same route every day, because you build a routine, you do the same things. You start to not notice changes around you because you’re not paying attention. You’re, kind of, just focused on, “Okay, I got from point A to point B, I got from home to the office,” and you forget the stuff that you saw around you.
But by doing things that are different or going about it in a different way, you start to pay attention again to what’s around you. And you notice you get from that point out of the . . . You get into a new neighborhood, in her case, and maybe you get lost in a neighborhood and, you know, your GPS isn’t working correctly because you don’t have a good, strong cell signal and you can’t get out, but you find your way out eventually. And you do. But when you do, you feel a great sense of relief, but you also have learned how to do that. So stretching is an important part of learning, and it should be an important part of mentoring and being a good mentee.
And again, be flexible. You know, things change. You might go into the mentoring project or program thinking, “I’m going to learn X, Y, and Z,” and your mentor comes back and says, “Nope, we’re going to do something different. And this is what I want to show you how to do it and how to do major gifts this way instead.”
You know, plans change. When you learn more, you know, you realize that you didn’t know what you didn’t know. And so there might be new things that might be more exciting to you. You know, when I was a new fundraiser, I never would have said ethics was a hot topic for me. I can’t get enough of ethics right now. Whether it’s in fundraising, and now it’s other things too. And it’s, you know, just, I’m in a point in my career that that’s important to me right now.
You know, 10 years from now, when I’m still in fundraising, which I will be, it’s going to be something else, I’m sure. But right now, that’s the hot thing for me. And so be flexible. Be, you know, be willing to change. I mean, nothing’s written in stone when it comes to mentoring, so be willing to go around that.
Lisa: Yeah. And I think just a good point to add to that is Dave is right. You really don’t know what path you’re going to take. My career started as an event fundraiser. And if I hadn’t been exposed to planned giving and had been mentored by somebody and introduced to those concepts, I might not be focusing on that in my career now.
Dave: Yep. And there’s ways to make the most of the mentoring program. This comes from an article from “The Guardian” that we thought was pretty spot on. You know, make sure you choose the right mentor. You know, is that the person that you’re supposed to be, you know, that has the skill set that you’re trying to learn and is able to do it? Not just because they’re successful, because they can be successful and be a really bad mentor because they don’t like teaching or don’t know how to teach the skills.
You want somebody that’s both successful and has the capability of providing that skill set, learning that you need. Again, be open and flexible. Things change. So you need to make sure that you’re comfortable doing that. And again, you’re going to be doing things outside of your comfort zone. So you need to be open to them.
Identify what the goals are. If you don’t identify your goals, you can’t measure whether or not something’s been successful.
You know, avoid therapy. This is, you know, you want to try to keep things professional. And it’s very easy to go in, especially when you start building the relationship and become friends and more friendly, it’s easy to go in and just complain about, “Okay, this is what the CEO said this week. This is what the board or the development committee chair wants me to do now.” Those sorts of . . . You want to avoid that because then it just turns into an hour-long, “This is what this person said, and I’m upset.” That’s not what mentoring is about. Yes, you’re supposed to listen, and maybe you can do that at another time, but you want to try to keep on track and keep focused so that you reach your goal.
Share your networks. This is important. And Lisa talked a little bit about this. I mentioned that Lilya took me to the AFP International Conference, she took me to meetings with donors and corporate leaders and foundation leaders when I was an intern. So I had that relationship, and I still do. And I’ve had it for a long time now because of that. But it’s important that you, and especially if that mentee is somebody that you work with or is one of your volunteers, because it’s natural that they can attend things like that. Or if you’re going to meetings.
I mean, if you’re mentoring somebody, if we’re both going to an association meeting, I make sure that I sit by them and I go and talk to them and introduce them to people that they might not otherwise know that I know that are at that meeting or at that conference. But one of the things, too, is not just for the mentors to share, but the mentees can share who they know. And it gives you a better understanding who the mentees are.
One woman that I mentored for a couple of years, she used to take me to an event that she ran. It was a celebrity chef type of dinner sort of thing. And I got to meet some of her coworkers and understand things. Well, one of the coworkers also was active in AFP and had a different mentor, but because I got to meet her through my mentee, I ended up hiring her for a job I had. And I went out and recruited her because she was somebody I knew who could do the skill set. And I wouldn’t have known her if I didn’t have that mentee introduced me to her.
And then, ultimately, though, listen, this goes for both sides though, listen to the mentor and listen to the mentee like you’re listening to your donor. As fundraisers, that’s probably the best skill set you could ever learn is to be an active and engaging listener. And, you know, make sure that you understand what the mentee is trying to tell you. And the mentee needs to make sure that they understand what the mentor is trying to tell you. And it works great when you become really strong listeners.
Lisa: So speaking of all the changes and the flexibility that Dave had referenced, a lot of us have found, within the past year, that we’re often mentoring people or serving as a mentee beyond our geographic boundaries. While traditionally, mentors tended to come from your community, now with everything becoming so much more virtual, that opens up opportunities to have a mentor across the country or around the world. So how do you make that a successful relationship?
And a few tips from an article we found in “Business News Daily” encourages that you set formal meetings. You know, again, treat this like your professional relationships. Make sure that you are finding ways to cultivate that relationship, connect between meetings. You know, in addition to having the opportunity to talk about what you want to gain out of the mentorship, you know, are there ways that you can stay in touch in between?
You know, kind of, like, when Dave and I developed our relationship, we stayed in touch on social media and saw what was going on in each other’s lives and were able to ask about those types of things. Or even communicating outside of that. You know, sending notes, sending an article that might be of interest to the mentor or the mentee. You know, we have the example at the beginning of the beautiful note that Laura had sent to Beth Ann for the holidays. So just finding those ways to really cultivate and steward the relationship and to just keep it going in between those formal sessions.
Dave: And one of the things that’s currently occurring now obviously is the pandemic. And that’s really impacted some of the ways that people meet. And so one of the things you need to discuss is how are you going to meet. I know, Beth Ann and Laura, both were meeting in person and went to doing virtual meetings. And that’s the case of most people.
There’s, you know, a handful of places where you can meet in person still sometimes, but you have to meet six feet apart and wearing a mask and, you know, other things like that, but, you know, you’re going to adjust and switch. How are you going to meet? And just talk about what’s best for you. Everybody’s a little bit different. You know, and help each other adjust. It’s not just on how you meet, but our jobs have changed.
You know, people have different expectations. Some people are working from home, some can’t work from home. You know, and, you know, people changed jobs during it, unfortunately, or fortunately, as the case may be. But, you know, there’s a lot of adjustment going on. You can help each other. And mentors can help the mentees go through that transition.
Discuss uncertainty. I mean, there’s a lot going on. And I get asked by my development committee and some of the senior staff I work with here at my own organization, you know, “What’s going on, fundraising, not just for us as an organization, but what’s going on in the fundraising world?” And so, you know, you look at different things and maybe the mentor can share information with the mentee about studies that are going on, you know, whether it’s the Fundraising Effectiveness Project or something else. But, you know, in my case, but, you know, discuss what’s going on. And it’s for both, because everybody’s getting, you know, trying to figure things with lack of certainty.
And something my chapter did, and it’s not, it’s pretty informal, but my AFP chapter realized, or members realized that, you know, one of the benefits of going to meetings in person, especially if you’re going to an association type meeting where it’s a luncheon or a breakfast meeting, or even a dinner get together, is that when you go to those meetings, often, you either sit with, you know, if you have coworkers, I’ve worked in both development offices where I was the sole development person, or like where I am now, I have a couple of people that work with me in my department.
Like, we could sit together or we might just sit in separate areas because we go talk to different people that we’re friends with. But you may sit down with people that you don’t know. And that’s how you get to meet people. I always try to sit with at least one person I don’t know at the table because I want to try to meet new people and get ideas. But you’re sitting there and you’re talking about whatever’s going on.
You know, right now, we would talk about a variety of different things that are going on because there’s so much going on. But we missed that. So we created something called Perfect Pairings. And what it is people that were willing to spend an hour each month of their time, and it doesn’t matter the experience you have or the level, these are just all chapter members that interested in just meeting virtually. And we get to do things that we’ve missed out on because we can’t meet in person and sit at tables and chat and can’t share a meal together in person anymore.
So the first . . . We’ve only done this for a couple of months, but it’s been very successful. The first month that we did it, I got paired with somebody that served on the board with me, and I’m still on my chapter board and have been for a while. But we knew each other, but didn’t know each other really well.
So we got to learn a little bit more about each other, but then we started talking about some of the challenges we’re currently experiencing. She worked at a museum, at a cultural institution that hasn’t been able to be open. And so how fundraising is going. So we talked about that. And then while I work at a human services disability nonprofit, we couldn’t stop our programs because we’re supporting people in the community and in their homes. And so we talked about that and how things are going with an organization that didn’t have to lay off staff or didn’t have to send everybody home because we couldn’t. So it was interesting.
And then the second person I got paired up with was somebody that I hadn’t met before, and she’s a newer member, but she also lived over 90 minutes away from me and so it’s not somebody I would typically see at a lot of meetings necessarily. But we got to know each other and learn a little more about each other and our organizations. There’s stuff we could actually do together as an organization, so it was actually good that we got to network and I appreciated that. But this has been a great thing. And now that we’ve had a couple months in with this Perfect Pairings, we have more people interested in it and hopefully, it continues to grow.
But that’s an example of something that we did. It was very informal. There is mentoring involved because you talk about something for a couple of minutes or 10 minutes or 20 minutes, and that’s all it is.
Lisa: Absolutely. And I just wanted to add to what you said, Dave, especially the part about during the pandemic and helping mentor or mentee adjust. I have to say, after personally going through a layoff and deciding what my next career move was going to be and ultimately deciding to go into consulting, both Dave and Kent and several of my other mentors were very helpful to be, again, to be a sounding board and to have someone else to talk that through and to weigh the options as I looked at where I wanted to go next. So I think that is something that we are going to be continuing to see is just that need for that active listening and that open-mindedness.
Dave: And this Forbes article also had five set steps for success that we think were important to share. And this is true from the beginning of the pandemic, but still now, now that we’re a while into it, have check-in conversations. Don’t just have formal meet for an hour type things. But just call, send an email, send a text, “Hey, how’s it going?” And just chat for a couple of minutes during the day or even on the weekend if, you know, whenever. And those are really actually important as a great way to remind people that you’re still there to help each other.
You know, create your to-do list. Let it be . . . Create an alternative to-do list, in this case, but, you know, allow things to be flexible. Again, things change. You’re not going to be able to reach all the goals that you have. If you’re like me, I’ve had to change some of my fundraising goals in terms of dollars, but also meetings and proposals and other things like that.
But make sure that, you know, you can adjust and make those adjustments appropriately and do a good educated guess of what you can do. You’re not supposed to . . . A mentor’s not supposed to fix the mentee. The mentee isn’t broken. And so the mentor is supposed to be helping the mentee learn about things. And obviously, some of that, you might not be able to do because you can’t go to meetings together, but you can try to do it virtually.
But just remember, the mentee is a professional too, and they’re not broken. You know, it’s a pandemic. And that’s, you know, the healthcare is broken for, you know, the disease has broken the way we do a lot of things, and it’s not the mentee.
Lower the bar. You know, some of the things, obviously, we go into mentorship, there’s a lot of goals. Like, the mentee has a lot of goals, especially if it’s like a shorter-term type thing, but, or even if it’s longer-term, you know, combined with focus on what’s critical, you can’t necessarily do everything now based on things happening, everybody’s reacting differently to what’s going on in the pandemic. Some people have been okay, some people, you know, a little depressed sometimes about it. But it’s okay to lower the bar.
You know, some of those goals might not be there right now and they can come back when things get a little more regular, if you will. It’s not going to be normal. I hate saying new normal, but, you know, it’s going to be back at some point where people can meet each other and greet each other and go into the office more often, stuff like that. So lower that bar. Focus on what’s critical so that the things that you don’t need to do, don’t focus on them for now.
Focus on what’s going to get you there. Maybe it’s an opportunity to spend more time to do more educational type of things, read more books because you have more time to read, you know, do more webinars because you don’t have to travel to the conference to see it anymore, you can sit and watch it on your laptop or your screen. So just focus on those things. And those steps are going to help you moving forward.
Lisa: Well, speaking of having more time for personal development these days with things being virtual, I just want to highlight a little bit about the difference between working with a mentor or a coach, or perhaps you may want to work with both in your career development. And there’s an article that we found in Mind Tools that touches on this a little bit.
But as Dave mentioned earlier, a mentor is typically serving as a volunteer in the role, whether it is within the workplace or within a local association chapter, whereas a coach is someone that is paid, and oftentimes paid directly by the fundraising professional yourself. Although, some organizations do have professional development budgets to hire coaches for their development professionals. So definitely look into that and see if that’s a possibility.
But looking at the relationship itself, a mentor, as we said, typically will guide a mentee along. It is ultimately the mentee’s choice to take a certain path. Whereas a coach will work more specifically with a client to map an action path, map out the steps, have follow-up from session to session to where there will be, in a way, homework that you will have to do after the session. Similar to being prepared to meet with your mentor, but it’s a little more intense.
And the relationship length can also vary. As we have highlighted, mentorship relationships might formally last for a year, but often continue for years or decades beyond that. Whereas working with a coach specifically, you’ll hire that coach for a certain period of time for a certain number of sessions. Maybe you’re working to achieve a specific goal. You want to receive some individualized training on a certain subject area.
Maybe you’re navigating a job transition, you’re working on getting a promotion, you’re working on negotiating a better salary and benefits for yourself. So, ultimately, it really depends on you sitting down and thinking what you are trying to achieve in your personal career development. And is it the right time to seek a mentor, seek a coach, or maybe to seek out a mentee and serve as a mentor yourself?
So just a few last words of advice from Beth Ann and Laura, our case study. Beth Ann felt that serving as a mentor was just a wonderful way of giving back to strengthen the profession. And reminds us that it is a relationship, it is a two-way street, and it can offer a lot to both the mentor and the mentee.
Well, Laura encourages, if you haven’t had a mentor before, to absolutely take the plunge. She felt it was the best thing that she could do for her career. And it doesn’t matter, just as Dave said before, it doesn’t matter where you are in your career, age. At any point your career, if you feel you are ready for some growth and some opportunity, it never hurts to learn from others and how you can continue to grow.
Dave: Yep. And so some of the things we discussed, you know, what is mentorship? We talked about benefits for both the mentor and the mentee. You know, how and where to find a mentor. How to make the best of the relationship, both professional and then, you know, hopefully, if you become friends, you know, more of a friendship. You know, changes in mentoring during the pandemic in how things evolve as well as, you know, do you need a mentor, do you need a coach, or do you need both?
You know, we’ve had both great experiences and, you know, speaking from my own personal experience, because I got so much out of the mentorship, being a mentee with Bob and Lilya and Doyt and others, you know, I really feel like it’s my almost obligation to give back to others that are newer in the field so that they can learn and be in a place, you know, and help them advance. You know, I certainly wouldn’t be where I am today without my mentors helping me early on in my career and throughout my career as I’ve progressed. And I’m sure Lisa feels the same way.
Lisa: Yeah, I absolutely do. It’s just like Dave said, it’s that. And even thinking back to some of my early mentors when I was an event-based fundraiser, it’s the whole wanting to pay it forward. And people were so willing to reach out and to help share their experience and teach me and guide me along that I, too, have sought opportunities to give back as a mentor and continue that growth. And it’s just, I agree with what Beth Ann said, it’s a great way to continue to grow our industry and to give back to the profession.
So before I turn it back over to Steven for question and answer, just wanted to make sure that you all had our contact information. You know, we’re open to hearing from you if you have additional questions or if you’re looking for resources. Our email addresses are on the screen as well as our social media handles. As we promised, if you go to fablanthropy.com/resources, at the very top of the page, you will see hyperlinked to every single resource that we mentioned throughout the articles in the books.
And one last reminder, because it’s National Mentorship Month, it is ThankYourMentor Day on January 29th, so set a reminder and #ThankYourMentor in a couple of weeks.
Dave: Yep. And Beth Ann would probably tell you, write them a handwritten note, so.
Lisa: Yes, she definitely would.
Dave: A big fan of handwritten cards.
Lisa: And I know she’s [inaudible 00:47:20] from the chat.
Dave: Steven, I’m want to answer one . . . I saw one question come up, but I want to address it right away. It was one of the last ones. How do you get more people of color involved in the mentoring program? One of the things, I think you have to be deliberate. Unfortunately, in fundraising, the number of people of color that aren’t Caucasian is not very big, at least in the AFP. And groups like AFP are trying to [inaudible 00:47:51]. I know the Grant Professional Association is looking at that as well, and I know that from my own experience. But it’s very important that you expand your own networks.
And, you know, one of the things somebody told me, and it made a lot of sense, is, you know, look at your social media feeds, if you’re somebody who uses a lot of social media, how many people of color do you have in your social media feed? Are you expanding your own networks? And maybe you’re not and don’t realize it. And that’s a, you know, a subtle bias that you might not know that’s occurring, but go out of your way to do that, encourage people to get more involved.
You know, I go and speak about, one of the things I talk about. I’ve gone to schools. I’ve taught a group of refugee teenagers about what fundraising is as a career. Go search kids, search out kids in communities that are underrepresented in our profession and show them that, “Hey, this is a great career. This is something you can do and I want to help you do that.” Do you have any advice, Lisa?
Lisa: Yeah, I was going to say, I think that that definitely covers it. I know that when I looked at the applications for the AFP Global programs, they did ask if people were comfortable to list demographic information, because I think they are, like you had said, trying to be mindful about being more inclusive in reaching out with mentorship programs. So I would agree with that. Be mindful.
Steven: Well, geez, this was great. We’ve got probably 10 minutes, folks. So, if you have a burning question, we’ve obviously got a wealth of knowledge here. But I want to say a quick thanks. This was awesome. I so enjoyed just sitting back and listening to you two. It’s good to see your faces and hear your voices as well. And shout out to Beth Ann Locke, our buddy.
I wish Beth Ann would mentor me, but she probably can’t take me on. It’s too much. You know, you got me thinking, Lisa, when you were talking about your planned giving mentor, is it okay to have multiple mentors in different, sort of, disciplines or fields of study or does it get to be maybe too much if you, kind of, stretch yourself too thin there?
Lisa: I think it depends what you’re trying to achieve at whatever point in your career. I think, you know, like we talked about, mentorship relationships, they may take on a more formal aspect for a certain period of time, but I still consider Dave a mentor. And I know, actually, you know, we’ve had opportunities where I’ve served as the mentor for Dave, you know, on specific subject areas where I’ve been more experienced.
And, you know, like I said, I also have the planned giving mentors that I work with. And depending on the topic area and depending on the advice, I may have a short list of colleagues that I would go to and ask their feedback and their opinion on something. So I have multiple in a more informal way, and I’m not necessarily scheduling meetings with them like I would now, say, when I’ve served in some of the formal mentoring programs, those, I mean, sometimes, they might pair a mentor up with multiple mentees. But typically, and Dave, tell me what you’ve seen, kind of, in your organizations, but I feel those are usually, kind of, a one at a time because of that formal aspect, because you’re being expected to have a meeting once a month type of metrics and those types of things and you don’t want to over ask.
Dave: Yeah. And because it’s not a formal teaching type of thing. I mean, if it’s a skill set that somebody really wants to be taught like a class, I mean, I have seen somebody take on, like, four or five people because somebody leads, for instance, like a CFRE review type of class for people that are interested in getting a certification and they, kind of, mentor them through the process. But it takes a couple people to do that. And you can have multiple people that are mentees with a mentor who’s gone through the program.
But that, again, that’s more of a teacher-student relationship. And, you know, really, you’re side-by-side with the individual. When I worked at the literacy council here prior to working at Achieva, we always work side by side when we were tutoring students, because it was, you don’t sit across from each other, you sit side by side when you’re doing it. And that’s very important because, you know, you don’t, you’re helping somebody, but they’re equal as you and you should be on the same side of things.
And it just is a subliminal type of thing, but you were right next to each other, helping each other. And it’s not sitting across the table because there’s a barrier between the two of you, and you shouldn’t have that.
Lisa: Right. And interestingly enough, that actually brings up another difference between mentoring and coaching, for example, that we touched on very briefly at the end. Whereas someone who is coaching and being hired to coach professionals may coach several different professionals at the same time on different subjects, but that’s a more limited short-term relationship, so that’s a list of people.
Dave: Yeah. I see Alice mentions here, you know, her mentors or people that she doesn’t meet with one-on-one, but they have a small mastermind group. So it’s four people that meets monthly. That’s a great way to do it as well. It’s, kind of, a, you mentor each other and your mentees with each other and it’s, you’re sharing the skill sets that you have, but also learning from all the others to build up your own skill set. So that’s also . . .
Steven: I feel like that would take the pressure off and maybe reduce the awkwardness of a one-on-one. Yeah. Not that I would know anything about awkwardness.
Dave: You do not have to be a CFRE to join AFP.
Lisa: And, you know what, to that point, you do see a lot more, especially now that we’re doing so many things on Zoom, you are starting to see more of those group type of . . . I know our AFP chapter has done several networking type of activities to where, you know, sometimes, people do bring a question to the table and it is an unofficial mentor type of situation, so to say.
Or, you know, I also participate with several other consulting colleagues in a similar type of Zoom on a fairly regular basis where we bring things to the table and somebody, you know, one week, you might be serving in a mentor type of role, giving someone advice, in the next week, you’re coming in with a question in more of a mentee type of role. So you are starting to see a lot more of that develop.
Steven: I love it. There was a question in here that I thought was, kind of, interesting regarding, sort of, staff mentorship, where, you know, do you think that’s appropriate where a boss would mentor a subordinate? It seems like that would happen naturally. And specifically, the question asks that if the staff is very diverse, can it work both ways where maybe that, sort of, subordinate person would also serve as a mentor to someone else in leadership? Have you seen that [anywhere 00:54:40]?
Dave: Yeah. I’ve seen . . . Yeah. I’ve experienced both where, you know, I’ve tried to mentor people that worked with me. Ellie, the woman that works with me is new to the profession about a year now. And, you know, she’s somebody, we try to mentor because she wants to do this and I want to make sure she has the ethical skill sets to be able to be a great fundraiser and she’s doing a very good job at it. But, you know, you do that and it’s informal, it’s not expected, but it’s something I want to do. Whereas, I’ve had bosses that hired me and said, “Okay, you shouldn’t have this skill set. Go out and raise money.”
Dave: And that’s okay too. Because, you know, they want to focus on the dollars, because that’s what the board or the board at the time was more interested in focusing on dollars than the professional development of the staff you have. And it’s, some of it is the culture within the organization. But, you know, personally, I love to help others, whether younger or older, because I know they can help me as well.
Lisa: I would say the same. I’ve definitely mentored employees in the past. And especially when they are, you know, fairly new to the industry or new to that type of fundraising. And to see them continue on in the industry in a role today, that’s definitely . . . It feels good to see that they took what we may have worked through initially and then continued to grow and learn and build beyond the time where I’m able to provide that direct impact.
Steven: I love it. Lisa, you mentioned Zoom, and Dave, you mentioned LinkedIn, I think a couple of times. You know, it’s a pandemic. And everything you’ve said about events is great, and I’m sure we’ll get back to that, but for now, is it, you know, reaching out to people on LinkedIn, kind of, cold or creeping on their Twitter like maybe some of us have been?
Dave: You can. I mean, you know, again, you’re not going to go out and say, “Hey, you know, I want you to be my mentor,” but try to research what skills they have or background they have. I mean, that’s certainly a way to do it is to go through their social media to see what they post. Like LinkedIn, obviously, it gives you a professional background. And depending on how much somebody has explained on their profile, you could see, you know, they have a lot of experience or they don’t have experience in the field that you’re interested in.
Whereas other social media like Twitter, Twitter is great and you can see what people talk about. I mean, I talk a lot about fundraising and grants, but also love talking about sports and I talk about my kids and my alma mater. And so you get to see a different flavor of what people are interested in. And it may be that that person has no interest, similar interests to what you’re interested in. So, you know, I had one person I got matched with that’s mentoring that I met with for a couple years.
He was a program officer, but was not in the fundraising side really. He did more programming, administrative type stuff, but he was really interested more in the tech background. And I have a degree in IT, so that was part of the reason why I got matched up with them. But just, you know, it doesn’t have to be fundraising. It could be any part of nonprofit management. You can talk to people in the organization about, you want to learn more about how finances work. You want to learn more about how to work with your board, you know, stuff like that.
Lisa: Yeah. No, that’s a great point. Because if somebody went and looked at my LinkedIn profile, they would see that my careers were in journalism and public relations. So someone in nonprofit communications may want to link and network with me for that reason. So I had to laugh when you were talking a little bit about Twitter. It’s like if someone came to my Twitter, that you would see the #NOLA Twitter shenanigans. We have a lot of fun in New Orleans with the Twitter community where we’re grieving the loss of carnival [Mardi Gras 00:58:22] this year having to be a little different, but we have one home.
Dave: Okay. There’s a question here that Alice asked, you know, do you have an example of a mentoring relationship that didn’t work for you? And you don’t have to name names, which we won’t. I think I had one at one point, and it was actually a formal match, he never got back to me. I tried setting up meetings so that we could meet. He never went back to me. And then when he did get back to me, like, closer to the end of the year, you know, he wanted a lot of things all at once.
And I said, “Well, what happened to the past nine months when you didn’t respond?” It was just odd. So that didn’t really work out. And sometimes, you know, you get people that want you to not just teach them about how they do different things, they want you to do it for them. So you’re not mentoring somebody so you can be their consultant. You know, you don’t go in. I’m not writing your direct mail. I can show you how to put direct mail together, but I’m not going to write your work for you, so. There’s another question.
Lisa: I would say . . .
Dave: Oh, go ahead, Lisa.
Lisa: No, I was just going to add to that, but I would say that the experience I had, experiences I’ve had that maybe didn’t work as well as the others also happened to be in more formal situations to where the mentee didn’t necessarily follow up as much as they should or just, kind of, did the bare minimum of what was required of the program. And so that didn’t . . .
It felt like maybe they didn’t take full advantage of the opportunity to learn from my experience. So I would say that, going back to what we had said earlier about, you know, doing your homework and realizing that you have access to a more experienced professional for a short period of time in a formal program. So take advantage of that.
Dave: And there’s one question. I think we might have time for one more. Somebody who’s interested in moving abroad and they’d love to find a mentor in the new country where they’re going to be, and, you know, if they can find insight. One of the things, I mean, you can look and see, depending on the country, you didn’t answer or mention which country it was, and that’s fine, every country seems to have their own fundraising professional association.
AFP happens to be in several countries like Canada and the U.S. primarily, but there were in Bermuda, Egypt, Southeast Asia. And, but there are other associations just like it, and you can reach out to them and ask. But one of the things you need to think about, though, is the cultural differences. Every culture has a different take on fundraising. And even here.
I mean, doing work with, with Goalbusters, I have, you know, done some fundraising and consulting with the Hopi nation, which is a native American, or first nations, if you’re Canadian, and they have a different take on fundraising. It’s not that different, but it’s different enough. You need to know the differences and how things change. And but, you know, again, look, reach out, if there’s a professional association that might be . . .
AFP is partners with other ones, and that’s great, with other associations, but go ahead and reach out. And maybe you do know somebody that’s in another country or maybe reach out to somebody that has a connection. And that’s where LinkedIn would work. You can find somebody that’s, you know, Ephraim’s here. He’s in Israel and he’s been on our call. So, if you’re going to Israel and you want to find out, reach out to Effie, he’ll tell you. And or he’ll tell you who you should talk to. And it’s been great, so.
Steven: Speaking of being great, this has been great. Thank you both for doing this. This has been a lot of fun.
Dave: Thank you so much for having us.
Steven: You know, we got their contact info. Reach out there, you know, follow them on Twitter. You’ll get that good New Orleans and Pittsburgh Steelers chat as well, but also some good fundraising advice. And yeah, this is great to have all of you join us for an hour. I know it’s a busy time of year. You’re just getting started in the new year probably doing gift acknowledgements and year-end stuff. So thank you for tuning in.
We’ve got a great webinar coming up. Same time, same place, next Thursday, 2:00 p.m. Eastern. Storytelling. We’ve got a couple of super-smart people, Rachel and Jarrett. Both of them have done webinars for us. Jarrett is awesome. His brain operates at, like, a level that I’m constantly trying to catch up to him. And Rachel has been doing this stuff for her whole career. That’s going to be a fun one. We’ve had them both separately, but they’re going to tag-team like Lisa and Dave did today.
So check that out one week from today. Next week, 2:00 p.m. Eastern, totally free. If you can’t make it or maybe you’re not interested in that topic, that’s okay. We got lots of other sessions coming up all throughout the year. I think we’re booked through September, something ridiculous like that. So check us out. We love having you on these webinars and we’re going to keep going with it.
But we’ll call it a day there. Look for an email from me with the recording and the slides. Reach out to these two and go get a mentor, be a mentor, probably more importantly, because we’re definitely needed out there. But we’ll call it a day. So have a good rest of your Thursday. Have a good weekend. Stay safe, stay healthy, please. We need you all out there. And hopefully, we’ll see you again next week. Bye now.
Steven: See you, guys.