Tom Iselin will show you how to increase your likability and “memorability” among donors that will deepen relationships, help you raise more money, and create greater donor loyalty.
Steven: All right, Tom, I got 2 Eastern. Is it okay if I go ahead and get this party started?
Tom: Let’s do it.
Steven: All right, awesome. Well, good afternoon, everyone, or good morning, I should say if you’re out on the West Coast, just barely. And if you’re watching, this as a recording I hope you’re having a good day, no matter when and where you are. We are here to talk about personal branding, specifically how to make yourself memorable. We got five excellent tactics for you that’ll help you raise more money, and improve your donor relationships through personal branding. So excited for this one. Glad you’re all here. I’m Steven. I’m over here at Bloomerang. And I’ll be moderating today’s little chat, as always.
And just a couple of quick housekeeping items, just want to let you all know that we are recording this presentation. And we’ll be sending out the recording, as well as a special handout for you later on today, later on this afternoon. So be on the lookout for that. Don’t worry, if you have to leave early or get interrupted, we’ll get you that recording, slides, everything. We’ll get you all that good stuff later on today.
Most importantly, though, as you’re listening over the next hour or so, we would love to hear from you. There’s a chat box. I know a lot of you already said hi already. Do that if you haven’t, we’d love to hear from you. And we’re going to try to save some time at the end for Q&A so don’t be shy. There’s a chat box and a Q&A box. If you’ve got a question specifically, it might be a little more visible to us if you use the question box, but no worries, we will monitor both. We’ll also keep an eye on Twitter if you want to send us a tweet. But basically, we would love to hear from you. So don’t be shy at all.
And if this is your first Bloomerang webinar, I just want to say an extra special welcome to all you folks. We do these webinars just about every single Thursday throughout the year. One of our favorite things we do here at Bloomerang. But if you’ve never heard of Bloomerang, and you’re wondering what the heck we are, we’re a provider of donor management software. We’re a donor database. That’s what Bloomerang is. So if you are interested in that, maybe you’re shopping for software, this year, even before year-end, check us out. You can visit our website. There’s lots of videos, lots of things you can look at to get a sense of what we offer. But don’t do that right now do later, at least wait an hour, because my buddy Tom is here from beautiful Idaho. Tom, how’s it going? It’s good to see your smiling face again. You doing okay?
Tom: Yes. Thanks. It’s really good to be here. I’m just so happy. I really, really enjoy your company. And I’m grateful beyond words for all the things that you’ve done for the nonprofit world and for Bloomerang, you know, great software, great customer service. I love referring people to you. I want a better kickback for the referrals I give.
Steven: Yeah, we need to.
Tom: I’m super grateful. I’ll let you do the intro.
Steven: Well, that is the end of our presentation. So thank you very much. Thanks to Tom for . . . Oh, no, just kidding. Tom, you’re great, you know, I repeat all that back to you in spades, for sure. We’ve been getting to know each other over the last few years. Even ran into each other a couple of times in Idaho, which was cool.
If y’all don’t know Tom, one of the reasons I keep inviting him back for webinars is he’s an awesome, super nice guy really knowledgeable. And he’s been in your shoes he’s actually founded eight nonprofits. I don’t know exactly how you were able to accomplish that, Tom, but it’s pretty cool. And is a really great and pretty highly esteemed trainer and facilitator. In fact, he was named one of the 10 best retreat facilitators in America. So if you got a retreat coming up, you might want to check him out, for sure. He’s also won the Social Entrepreneur of the Year award. Founding eight nonprofits probably gives you a leg up in that competition, I would imagine. And he’s featured all over the place. He’s speaking at conferences, doing webinars. Heck, he’s been on CNN. I mean, what else is there?
So personal branding, I love this topic. I’m really excited to learn from you, Tom. And I’m guessing people want me to pipe down. So I’m going to do that. I’m going to stop sharing. We’ll let you bring up your slides here and then the floor will be yours.
Tom: Okay. Well, thank you very much. How are we looking over there? Everybody getting set?
Steven: Yeah, we’re looking good.
Tom: We’re looking good. All right. Well, thanks again, everybody. I couldn’t be more happy to be here. We’re going to jump right in. But first, as he created a little segue, everything I want to be talking about, I hope you received the handout. If you haven’t received the handout, Steven he’ll send it to you at the end of this talk. And it will be helpful. But hopefully, some of you have it in hand, that’d be great. And a lot of this content that I’m talking about today is in my book called “Cloudburst” on fundraising, you’ll find scripts and things in there you haven’t ever seen before. So really good book just above costs and I’m offering them at $8 and my book on “Organizational Development.” I have a few other books, but those are the two that really are applicable to this. And like he said, if you’re looking for a retreat or a strategic planning session, hey, give me a call. I’d love to chat with you.
Well, let’s jump right in. So in format for today, part of this is going to be educational, going to hopefully learn some things you haven’t learned before, and part of it’s definitely going to be strategic. We’re going to talk about the bigger picture things as it relates to personal branding and making yourself memorable, so you can raise some more money and improve those donor relations.
And, of course, we’re going to be quite practical. We’re going to start out kind of the big picture. And then we’re going to dive into some practical tactics that you can apply just in the next few weeks. You know, with some fundraising coming up, end of year fundraising, as you probably know, 30% of all the money given comes at this time of year. So here we go.
Let’s look at the nonprofit environment and why that’s so important. And then we’re going to say, “Hey, why care about your brand? What does it really matter? I mean, does it really matter that much? Does it have that big of an impact?” And then okay, let’s say we say yes, well, then what are some tactics that you can use that will actually really make a difference?
Well, let’s take a look at this nonprofit world. You’re on a mission, right? That’s why we’re all in this business. We want to make a difference. You see, it’s not about Wall Street or State Street. It’s about the side streets and the back alleys. We all have noble intentions, and we have worthy missions. We want to help those kids. We want to help the seniors. All the work we’re doing, whether it’s the environment, no matter what your mission is, we’re doing this. We spend 50, 60 hours a week working really hard, usually for a little pay to really make a difference.
But the truth is, the nonprofit world is fierce as you know. There’s 1.5 million nonprofits out there. Eighty-five percent of them have budgets less than a half a million dollars. And more than 94% have budgets less than $2 million. And get this, the top 400 nonprofits in the world . . . in the United States rather receive 20% of all giving. Think about that, 20% of all giving goes to 400 nonprofits. Well, if you take that 20% from the 100%, you’re left with 80%, right? Well, that 80%, 60% of that money goes to large institutional organizations like hospitals and universities, and large cultural institutions, like museums, zoos, and libraries, and religious organizations. So that leaves about 20% of the funding pool to organizations like you.
Plus, it’s super competitive. As you know, you have limited resources, right? It’s challenging. I mean, who doesn’t want more time and more money and more people and more skills and more expertise and more influence, right? It’s tough out there. In fact, you might not know this, but USC has 750 paid fundraisers. That’s right, 750. And I can tell you that firsthand, because my daughter goes there, and I swear I’ve received a call from every single one of those people. But the big picture is, let’s put that in our heads for a second. I’m going to continue with some of this fundraising because it’s all going to make sense in a couple of minutes.
So more than 80% of all this money that’s donated to charities comes from people, comes from people. And 80% of that money comes from face-to-face giving. That means that 70% of almost all the money given in this country other than government money is coming from people sitting down and asking face-to-face, or on Zoom calls in some kind of face-to-face setting. So that means it’s personal. And that means our image and our brand is making a difference. People are judging us and viewing us and making decisions about how we treat them. So your personal brand is important.
But get this. So anywhere from 50% to 60% of people stop giving after one year. After one year, that’s probably why if you’re looking at your attrition rates, it used to be like 35% or 40% but now it’s like 50% to 60%. And as many as 90% of people stop giving after four years, that means almost every four or five years, you’re turning over your database. And so it’s like, okay, well, how do we say . . . and it’s not just about like, bringing people into the funnel? It’s how do we really create this retention? And how do we keep people in and have them feeling like the value that we’re providing is so high and that our relationships with them are so strong that they want to give for 5 years, 10 years, or into perpetuity by giving in their will?
So let’s just go one step further. So what are people attracted to when they start giving money, right? They’re the basics, right? Issues they care about. I mean, do you give to organizations you don’t care about? No, we give the issues we care about. So if they don’t care about our issue, we need to make sure we’re working to convince them to do that, right?
Then missions they believe in. Because it’s not just about the issue, because let’s say you’re helping with hunger relief, well, there might be 10 organizations in your community helping with hunger relief. And if that’s the case, well then how does your mission differentiate? And organizations they trust.
But look at this, number four people they like. One of the top six reasons why people give is because of the people they like, right. And then look at first-rate performance and impact. That makes sense. We got to be able to make a great case about what the impact we’re having a short-term benefit to the beneficiaries, and the long-term benefit of what we’re doing those kinds of things. But look at number six, outstanding donor stewardship and customer service and that has to do with people and how people treat people. So these are key things you want to keep in mind. They’re all folding into why your personal brand is so important in raising money.
And then well, look at this, why do people continue to give? Well, they want to know number one, has my donation made a difference? That makes sense, right? We want it and that’s why we all give we want to know that our money that we’re giving to making a social investment we want a social return, right?
But look at number two, how have you made me feel? How have you made me feel for the monetary gifts I’ve made and the non-monetary gifts? This comes back to customer service and donor relations. How did you make me feel? This is why it’s all-important. So when you boil it down, this is one of the most important statistics. If you take this away, today, put this in your pocket, because this is going to come in useful to know over time.
After four years, one of the most important reasons why donors continue to give isn’t because of the organization’s mission, it’s because of the relationship they have with the person asking them for money. Now think about that let that soak in for a second. This is why you go to the same barista. This is why you go to the same hairdresser. This is why you go to the same restaurants, you know, in small towns, or mom-and-pop bakeries, because you like the people.
And this is why donors continue to give, they like the people they give to. And we need to take that in, really to heart, these statistics because this is the stuff that can help you raise money. So all right, so you say okay, “Tom, that’s great. I get to statistics, that all makes sense. But you know, really, why should I care about my brand? What really, impact does it really have?”
Well, the truth of the matter is, and as we know, we’re always forming impressions on people, right? It’s about who we are, and what we do. And who we are is made up of two things, our personality, the things people see on the outside, right, and the way they smile, and our personality, and we’re gregarious and those kinds of things. But also our character, what we stand for integrity, humility, following through, those kinds of things, and what we do.
And it’s not just what we do, because you can send a thank-you letter, or you can send, you know, make a phone call, but it’s how we do it. And that is the $64,000 question you want to answer is how you do those things? And how, when you do those things, the impressions you’re making on people.
So you know, why is your brand so important then? So if it is, what’s so important about it? Well, your image is wrapped up in your brand. And to some extent, even your nonprofit’s image is wrapped up in your brand. Because as you know, if someone’s kind of a jerk, or they’re rude, or they’re disrespectful, or they’re not following through, people will think that about the organization. They’re going to think oh, you know, that’s not a very high-quality organization. So this, it seems to make sense.
But it’s also contagious. This is why we love to give the people that we like because we know that their passion is coming through and we get very excited about their excitement, and we want to help them in some way.
So it provides a lot of credibility. And we know people, right. We know really friendly, gregarious people that have a great disposition, and are always going above and beyond. And we say, “Wow, that person is really making a difference.” And it provides credibility, and it provides then credibility to the organization. And you can leverage that kind of credibility if you have that kind of brand to raise more money because fundamentally, people like to do business with people they like, trust, and know. Remember that. Think about that. People like to do business with people they like, trust, and know. And that’s exactly how you do business.
So you think okay, great. Now, if you want to talk about your personal brand, we have to start with taking inventory, because what is your brand? You know, what do donors really think about you? You know, if they were to give you a Yelp score, what would you get? Like, really think about that. What kind of score would donors give you? What kind of images and impressions and ideas do they hold about you?
You know, when you think about a brand, and I actually skipped a slide, which is pretty funny, is that, you know, what is a brand? Well, a brand is those images, impressions, and ideas or beliefs that are held and formed in a person’s mind. They’re your identity. They’re top-of-mind ownership. I mean, when you think of Tiger Woods, do you think of him as a great golfer? Do you think of him as someone who had an affair? Do you think of him as someone who’s washed up? What is it? And what do you think of him? And what did people think of you deep down?
So say, okay, so we have to think, okay, that’s what we were doing a little inventory. But now we think then to really move forward to talk about our brand, we got to like, well, we have to define our brand. So now that we know what a brand is, we’ve done a little inventory on it. We say, “Well, now we have to define our brand.” And one of the things you can do and it’s going to be too long to do today on the call. But that’s why you have the worksheet to give you a little exercise to do on page one question number four is going to help build your brand.
And so what you do is very simply say hey, you got to start with asking some fundamental questions say, “What kind of personal attributes would I like to have?” You know, what would make a great fundraiser beyond what I think I am today? Like really what would make me really be more likable by my donors? What kind of personal attributes would I have? You know, do I need to follow through more? Do I need to maybe listen more? Those kinds of things and what are some of the differentiators that make you stand out against other fundraisers in your area or in your region?
So what you want to do is write down kind of what would be the equivalent of a bullet-pointed profile, a Yelp profile. So you write that down and you kind of look at the gaps. Look at kind of where you are, your current Yelp score, and where you would like to be, your preferred kind of Yelp profile. And then you have to work to what are those differentiators? And what are those things that you can use and do to close the gap? And that’s what we’re going to be talking about today.
What are some of these tactics that can help you be more memorable and give you a better Yelp score, and help improve your Yelp profile for raising money? So let’s do a little exercise here. And we’ll make this quick, this stuff this first part pretty easy. What could you do and I want you to write in the chat and it’d be great if Steve you could help me kind of facilitate some of this. What can you do to make a standout first impression? These are simple, this kind of warm-up. What are some things you could do to make a standout first impression? Write a couple of things in the chat. What are some . . . What are you thinking?
Tell a story. I like that. Be enthusiastic about the mission. Perfect. A question and really listen. Yeah, I love that one, really listen to the answer. We’re going to be talking about that. Smile, right, be intentional. I love this, be courteous. These are all fantastic. I hope you guys can print this out in some way because this would be fantastic. Eye contact. Exactly. So it’s all those things, perfect. Arriving on time, right? Greet someone with a friendly handshake. The idea of that showing your passion because that really ignites people.
We all know that someone when they’re expressing their passion about the mission, it gets contagious, it’s contagious and gets people very excited. And you really can only share your passion unless you have a kind of energized spirit and positive attitude, terrific. Of course, warm, you know, being warm and friendly, great eye contact.
But here’s something that didn’t come up. And I can tell you, if you want to make a great first impression, please do not have bad breath. If you just come to a meeting and you smell like roasted garlic, people just will get turned off. They’ve done a lot of studies about bad breath and people’s attention. And it like goes to zero, that’s one.
And two a neutral smell. Well, if you wear cologne or perfume, let me strongly suggest that you don’t wear any because some people have allergies. And some people are annoyed even though you might like it, someone else might not. So try to go for a neutral smell.
And the last and my favorite is pick up the tab. I’ll tell you one of my favorite tactics especially when I meet with major donors. I take them out for coffee or lunch or something. I make sure I walk in talk to the hostess and make sure that I give them my credit card and have it run ahead of time and just say, “Hey, bring me the check,” and add 20% or 25% onto it. And it’s kind of a stealthy way. And it makes an amazing first impression on donors. So thank you. This is all really great stuff. I love it. I love it. I love it.
So let’s move on to something a little bit deeper. How can you go about making a lasting impression? A really a stand outlasting impression. What are some things that you think you can do? Because now we’re going to start getting it just more of the meat of the day, to make a lasting impression. Go ahead, throw some stuff out there.
Handwritten note, okay, we’re going to be talking about that in a second. Gifting if you know they would like, right, right. Check-in with them without asking. These are great. Steven got to make sure you send these to everyone because at least the notes. This is terrific. Show gratitude. Follow-up calls. God, these are all terrific. Yeah, this would be really great to share with everyone. So one of the things okay, let’s go on a bigger concept. These are fantastic and thank you for sharing them.
The number one thing that you can do, if you want to make a standout impression, I’ll tell you I want to . . . there’s two things. One, actually, you want to make sure you kind of connect the donor with your programming, if you can in any way. One of the things I love to do is like when I was running my Higher Ground program, and we were helping kids with disabilities is that there was an ice-skating rink outside here in Sun Valley. And it’s out in the sun and you get a mountain view. It’s beautiful. It’s warm in the summer, and people are out there ice skating. It’s gorgeous.
And right next to it is this restaurant called Gretchen’s. And what I would do is take my donors there, and we would have this amazing lunch. We would be sitting there watching the kids with disabilities, learning how to ice skate. And then after a great lunch, I’d walk him down there and I’d introduce him to my amazing staff. And then we’d walk them out on the ice and they’d grab the hand of a young child, let’s say a 10-year-old with Down syndrome, and they’d go ice skating, you know, shuffle around on the ice with them. And it would just have this huge, huge impression on them, that they got a chance to touch and feel the programming firsthand.
And I can’t tell you how many times donors walked off the ice and just said, “Wow, that was the most amazing experience. I really now understand what you’re doing here and the impact you’re having.” And it was just like, then they’re just saying, “Well, how much money do you need?” It was pretty easy to raise money. That’s one.
But the second thing in and one of the most important things, and if there’s only one thing that you take away from this talk today, and that is it, and you can do a screenshot of this is I want you to start thinking about how to be a philanthropic concierge. I want you to think about what you can do to go above and beyond to make the donors’ experience, get this, unexpectedly pleasurable. What can you do in everything that you do? Whether you write a note, whether you meet them what can you do at that moment, to go above and beyond to make that donor’s experience unexpectedly pleasurable?
You do that, and if that’s the only thing that you have in your head from this talk that you take with you for the next for as long as you’re raising money. I guarantee it, that you will raise more money, and you will improve your brand. And people will never forget you. And they’ll always be saying, “Wow, Jenny, and John, I don’t know what they’re always just doing something special, always doing something nice, they’re always going above and beyond. And they just are making that experience just unexpectedly pleasurable.” That is the single most important thing that you can take away from this talk. And I can tell you, someone who’s raised hundreds of millions of dollars, I’m always, always trying to do that, even with the clients I have now.
So here it is number one, try to go above and beyond in all the things that you do, just like I said. One of the simpler things that you can do that’s practical that relates to that is asking personal questions. Get to know them as people, get to know their family and their backgrounds and their kids, and what they like to do and the TV shows they like. Just get to know them really as people not as donors. And as philanthropic questions like, why did they give? How do they give? Where do they give? What is their favorite way to give? What did they think about the organization? And you know, great questions like that, what’s been their best gaming experience? What’s been their worst giving experience? Those kinds of things.
You know, it’s obvious, like always expressing humility and passion, being honest, following through. People underestimate that. I cannot tell you having had so many fundraisers, training so many fundraisers, how little follow-through donors tell me over and over and over and over how little follow-through. If you want to be great at what you’re doing and you want to go above and beyond, make sure that you’re always following up, and following up quickly, not like in two weeks, like in 24 hours or less.
And then, you know, showing . . . we’re going to talk about showing donors how you value and appreciate them, we’re going to do that. But knowing your stuff, here’s another thing that most people don’t really realize is that really, you know . . . And the more you really can know about the organization’s like the details. And having your own stories, like really great stories about the volunteering that you’re doing, or the experience you’re having with your beneficiaries and being able to tell those stories. You’d be surprised how few fundraisers when they’re talking with donors tell really good stories. So the more emotional the stories, the more important it is, and it will show like, you know, really great service to the donor that you really know your stuff.
And, of course, talking less and listening more, I mean, what great concierge is just going to just blab along. You want to be if you’re not really if the donor isn’t talking almost 70% of the time, you know, then you’re probably talking too much. Be a great question asker. And always be thinking about doing the little things and we’re going to move on to how we can do some more little things that really stand out.
So someone wrote and a few of you did about personalizing things, right. But the challenge is, is that most people really don’t personalize it. What they’re doing is they’re just saying, “Oh, I’m going to send a handwritten note,” but they’re not really personalizing it. You know, what personalizing mean, right? It really means how do I make it personal to them? Not just using their name, but what can you say about their family or their kids in some or their anniversary. Or something you know about them that you maybe you just saw them at an art gallery or something like that.
And these little things, someone brought this up too which I thought was like surprise them. You know, don’t just send it after they’ve made a donation, send a thank-you or send a special note when they least expect it. When they least expect it. Keep it classy. What are some things that you could do? What are some things that you could do to personalize things that’s kind of different? Share them with the group. What are some things that you could do?
While you’re writing some things someone just said, you do that while you’re recruiting. You mean yeah, when you’re cultivating donors? Absolutely. That’s when you really won’t do the little things that they don’t expect, for sure. Maybe when you write an invitation, you can have one of your beneficiaries, write an invitation, you know, or sign it or send it on a card. There’s so much you can do. A drawing from a child, I love that. That’s pretty popular. Yep, yeah, bring them coffee. Yeah, there’s this . . . right. These are really great. Steven, I really hope we can share these with the group. This is terrific.
So there’s a bunch of little things. So here’s what I want you to take away from this so that you can think there’s lots of ways you can personalize things that you do during your thank-yous. But what I want you to be thinking about is really, really, what can you say specifically about them? You know, when you’re saying thank you, how can you mention something about maybe their daughter just graduated from Tufts, and what could you say about that? Make it personal, maybe you just saw them in the gym, make a fun note about that, I mean, or around town, or wherever it might be. Or they were in the paper. That’s a great one. If you saw them, if you’re working with major donors and they were just honored, send them a thank-you, a personalized note saying, “Hey, I just saw that you were honored for this or that. And I just wanted to make note of that. That’s amazing. That’s a great contribution to the community.”
Those little things like that, I’m telling you no one is doing that. No one is doing that. You do those little things and make them specific, those handwritten invitations, those handwritten thank-yous, instead of just like, something generic, but it’s personalized. You will stand out from all the other donors . . . I mean, sorry, the fundraisers out there who are clamoring for their money.
You can send a custom thank-you video. I mean, here we are doing Snapchats and you’re doing . . . we’re FaceTiming and doing all this. Hey, send a 30 second Thank you, just something out of your heart, about how much or just showing appreciation, just like the example I just used. Just get on your phone, do a little video and send it to them, I can tell you that will make a ginormous difference.
And you know, if they volunteer a lot, and, you know, we’ve gotten some great shots of them. This is one of the things I love to do at one of my organizations is we have this folder, and I know it takes a little time but we have a folder. And in this folder, we have the names of everyone and we collect the photos. And then once in a while, we put together a Flickr album, and we send it to them with music behind it and a thank-you. And they just go, “Oh, my god, this is so amazing. It meant so much I cried. It just showed how much that you really care about me as a donor.” So those are some terrific things you can do.
I always send out thank-yous. This is like a card. This is an actual someone that was . . . it’s in one of our programs for women who have suffered domestic violence. And so we send a thank-you. And because they want to give back, this person actually hand wrote a note, the thank-you to the donors. And so we had her write a bunch of thank-yous. And that was really effective.
Here’s a kid who was one of our programs, and we had him sign some cards because he wanted to give back and so did his family. And so he wrote some really cute little things. And we sent those to the donors. Here’s an organization that I started that helps kids who’ve been traumatized. And so it’s a really powerful card to write thank-yous on that. And here’s Anthony, he was in one of my wounded veteran programs that these young men and women who’ve lost their legs and arms in Iraq and Afghanistan. And he was really kind to write a couple of notes to donors as well. And I can’t tell you these little thank-yous that are personalized like this make a big difference.
So go going to go into this next level. So this thinking and recognition let me tell you how it can really pay off. So one of the things that I did once is this guy in the checkered shirt back, there is Charlie Annenberg, and he’s from the Annenberg Foundation, a big foundation on the West Coast. And he had been a big supporter of my Wounded Veteran Program. And so I said, “Hey, you got to . . . ” you know, we went fishing one day, and we were just and he loves to fish, and we’re fly fishing.
And after a day of fishing, we’re sitting on a log with his dog Lucky and drinking a beer. And he’s like, “You’re doing amazing work for these young men and women. I really, really want to support you. What do you want to do? I want to help you go to the next level.” I said, “Hey, before you like, tell me how much you’re willing to donate, I want you to come to one of the programs.”
And so he came to our fly fishing camp. And here he is, and in the background, and he was so moved by what he saw by having him there, and my way of saying thank you for his donations. He said, “My God, I want to give you $450,000 to help you expand the program, and I’m going to produce a movie about this.” So he brought a film crew in and we went to another event. And we produced the film and we entered it in the Telluride Film Festival and we won. We won the Audience Award which led to a lot of national attention being on national television tens of thousands of dollars in donations from people we had never heard of.
So what is the point of all this is? Is a way taking him fishing, going thank you . . . I mean, sorry going fishing to thank him personally, doing something that he loves to do and then just seeing what happens. I mean, it was all about just let’s go fishing and have a good time. And that’s what it ended up. Now, not everyone can do that. But I can just tell you sometimes by saying thank you in a way that’s unusual can lead to unexpected results.
Oh, I didn’t want to tease you with that one yet. So what are some things that you could do? What are some things that you could do that are different that you could say thank you? I mean, how can you say thank you in a way that is kind of unexpected? What are some things that you do?
I’d love to hear what are some things that you do that you could share with everyone else? Maybe even though they might be your trade secrets, these people aren’t in your neighborhood. I cook for donors. Oh, I can’t wait to talk about that one. Thank-you cards from our kids, personally delivering a gift. These are amazing. I’m going to bring some of these up. Yes, these are awesome. Automated and . . . oh, boy they’re going so fast, baking cookies, BombBomb videos. Those are awesome, by the way, BombBomb is awesome for doing those short videos. They’re incredible. Student, thank-yous, yes, oh, my god. Homemade lunches, painted ballet pointe shoes. Oh, my, gosh, that’s a good one. I’ve never heard that one. These are terrific.
So the idea is instead of like with your team, when you’re getting ready to do thank-yous, these are amazing, by the way. I love all these. Thank you for sharing. And again, Steven, you got to get these out to everybody, this is amazing, is what can we do differently, right? You know, take a donor to lunch, but take the donor to lunch with the beneficiary, right? Let the beneficiary and sometimes, you know, you might have to get permission. But a lot of parents would just love to do it, or the parents participate and the kids get to tell their stories or a beneficiary gets to tell their stories. You know, maybe a woman who’s suffered domestic violence, she’s really passionate about what you do, and she wants to share her story.
Host a donor at a special event. That’s an interesting one, I just talked about doing something with a donor that they liked to do hike, or fish and spend some time with them. I know, it’s not always easy to do that, especially if you live in a city or your donors live far apart, you know, you can’t do that with, you know, every donor for sure but you can do it for some. Birthday cards, anniversary cards. We all know that but personalize it. That’s cool. And the thank-you video.
But making a dinner, you know, like for your top donors. I have a couple of great ideas like I love to cook, my grandmother was a famous chef, and I just have a passion for it. So I used to cook dinner for some of my major donors. And I would go over there, but I wouldn’t just show up, you know, with just make dinner, I would bring a photo, let’s say of my Wounded Veterans, maybe one or two people, maybe they were volunteering. And I had a like Anthony. And maybe they know Anthony. And so I got a photo of them. And I would put it in a really nice frame, like a $60 or $80 frame. And I know that sounds expensive. But it was like a frame that a major donor would love to put on their mantle and just like they would be proud to have it there.
And I cannot tell you by buying classy, nice photo frames and having amazing photos in there that were signed by, let’s say the beneficiary. How many times we had new donors who called us up because they wanted to contribute based on them going to another donor’s house and seeing that photo. It’s dozens. And so sometimes by not cheesing out and doing something classy and nice and spending a little money can have big benefits.
So there’s a bunch of little things you can do. And here’s some that came up too that were just posted on the chat is maybe sending a poinsettia at Christmas. Maybe having it delivered by a beneficiary. Sending gingerbread loaves that . . . But having students deliver cookies, that was mentioned too. Or someone I just talked to, they’re going to have their beneficiaries go sing Christmas carols at homes. That’s kind of interesting. Or you know, having roasted coffee and personalize the bag and send it to them.
There’s lots of things you can do. So here’s the upshot, the upshot, the takeaway is okay, how can you say thank you differently? How can you personalize things differently? So sit around what I’d be doing with my team, you know, whether it’s just you or a couple of people or you have a big staff is say, “Okay, let’s go above and beyond. What can we do that’s affordable based on our budget that is going to set us apart from everybody else?” Get creative.
That’s really the takeaway because if you do that, and you’re doing it yourself, you are going to improve your brand. And you’re going to set yourself up as, “Wow, this is like concierge service. This person, this organization is willing to go above and beyond and they make the experience for me unexpectedly pleasurable and dammit, they’re doing great work to boot.” And that is what’s key.
So what are the takeaways here? You’re in the people business. You can never forget that. You only have board, staff, and volunteers to do the work. You’re doing fundraising. It is about people. It is about relationships. And if you want donors to stick around and you want your attrition rates to be low, and your retention rates to be high, you need to have a great brand, your organization needs to have a great brand. And one of the things that you can do that, besides providing outstanding service, you mean for your beneficiaries, you know, programming is for you to provide outstanding service, and to go above and beyond.
So, remember, you’re always adding or subtracting to your brand, every interaction you have with a donor, you’re either adding to your brand in a positive way or subtracting to it, right? This is what . . . that’s just life. Or maybe it’s neutral, but usually, you’re adding or subtracting. People are always kind of unfortunately, people are making judgments like, you know, how well . . . did they do a good job? Did they treat me well? Are they following through? You know, because they’re comparing you. They’re getting, you know, attention from, maybe a dozen, especially for a major donor, not only just a dozen organizations, they could be getting clawed on by, you know, 50 organizations.
So always remember to do the little things, whether it’s, you know, saying thank you or personalizing because remember, they want to feel valued and appreciated. And appreciation starts with you. And they want great service and great service starts with you. And so that’s my parting words. If you become a philanthropic concierge and you are going above and beyond, and you’re always thinking about doing the small little things that make a difference, and you do it with integrity and passion, your brand is going to skyrocket. And I guarantee you’re going to raise a lot more money and keep a lot more donors.
And so that’s it. I really appreciate everybody’s time today. This was terrific. And again, this information is in both of my books. You can go to the website buy. They are only $8 there. Do not go to Amazon, because Amazon has old versions. You’ll get the latest versions at the cheapest price at my site. So if you want the latest versions of the book that just came out, I’d go to my site. And I’d love to talk to you about board retreat, or strategic planning. So that’s that. All right, let’s open it up to Q&A. Steven, what do you have to say?
Steven: Well, first, thank you. That was awesome. There was a lot of good stuff in there and some sneaky good stewardship ideas. I wasn’t expecting so many. So that’s awesome. I think you got people, not just learning from you, but also learning from each other in the chat. So that was really fun to see. Yeah, we got plenty of time for questions, probably good 10, 12 minutes, if people can stick around.
There was a couple of questions when we were talking about maybe some of the thank-you gifts. What about maybe when you hear from donors that they don’t want that? Or maybe they perceive that as money not going towards a mission? And any tips? I’m sure you’ve run into that at least a couple of times maybe, Tom?
Tom: Oh, that’s a good one. Yeah, it depends. Yeah, well, you can because it’s, you got to consider the donor and your budget and how they perceive swag. So like, if you send them pencils, and mugs and stuff, they’re going to be down on that, right. But if you send a handwritten card, you know, like a postcard, those things are pennies on the dollar. And if you send a major donor a beautifully framed photo, they’re not going to think you’re wasting money, right? I have not found that to be the case at all.
It’s what they think is like the waste of money is the swag stuff. Like sweatshirts, they’re going to throw away. Little like recycle bags, you know, that might work, depending on what your mission is, if it’s hunger relief, or you’re doing a soup kitchen or something.
But I think you have to think of it if it would fall in the category of swag, then it’s probably not worth doing. And I think but the things that don’t take a lot of time, like maybe baking cookies and delivering them. So you got to make the assessment for sure.
And you wouldn’t do it to everybody, you know, like you can do the smaller stuff to your small and midsize donors. But then the larger donors, you can do something else. And I think that’s what you have to do is like, “Okay, we got to segment this and think about it from practice,” because you might have if you have 500 donors or 5,000, that’s a big difference, right?
Steven: Yeah. You can’t bake cookies for 5,000.
Steven: Well, maybe you could, but . . .
Tom: The Girl Scouts.
Steven: Yeah, that’s true. They get it done. So speaking of the photo frame idea, is that just a photo? Or would you include maybe a note with that, too? Seems like, yeah, right?
Tom: Absolutely. So you could have . . . this is a, you know, subjective call, but you could have maybe if it was the beneficiary, you could have them sign it. Or write on the back of it or write a separate note that goes along with it. And then just has the photo because you know, writing on the photo is not going to be nearly as nice, you know, it’s those kinds of things. But typically, yes, a personalized note, again, not just, “Thank you very much for your donating, we really love what you’re doing for the organization,” blah, blah, blah. No, no, make it personal somehow, address something that you know about them that other people might not know, you know, and separate you from other fundraisers.
Steven: Love it. Here’s a good one from Don. Don just asked a donor, what type of projects they would be interested in. And his reply was about giving towards a project where I’m involved and that will be beneficial for my position to be supported. Any thoughts on how to respond to that particular donor? That’s kind of interesting.
Tom: I’m a little unclear on the question. Help me.
Steven: Giving towards a project where I’m involved and that would be beneficial for my position to be supported. Yeah, Don, tell us a little more about that donor. We want to make sure we can answer the question as intended there. But maybe, while, hopefully, while Don’s typing there, Tom, what do you think about just like the idea of feedback from donors, in general. Where maybe they’re not, you know, super preferential to a specific cause or anything like that, or maybe the opposite. Where they’re like, “No, I want my funds designated for this very specific thing, and you have to do it?” How do you kind of navigate those preferences, in general? What have you seen work there?
Tom: So what again, just not quite clear on that question. So give me a specific, like . . . I’m sorry.
Steven: Donor is saying I don’t really care where the funds go, you know, you pick. What would you do there? How would you, I guess how would you go about [inaudible 00:41:09]?
Tom: Well, you know, that’s okay. That’s clear. Okay, so someone’s willing to make an unrestricted gift, that’s fine. It’s going to go to help all of our programs. That’s pretty clear. If someone wants to give to a specific project, then you know, you have a restricted gift and, you know, that’s all fine too. Most organizations want unrestricted gifts.
And you know, that’s . . . but one of the things if you really want a good fundraising tactic, if you have a depending on the size of your budget. If you can get a couple of major donors to fund your entire programming, you know, like, I’m sorry, your admin, sorry, I said that backwards. Your administration costs and your fundraising costs, so all the other donor’s money goes to the programming, then you can say, “Hey, 100% of your donation is going to go to the programming.”
Now, that’s an amazing thing and some major donors will step up because they know, and they understand a great running organization. A high efficiency, a high effective organization needs to have amazing staff and amazing operations. And they have to do fundraising. And they’re saying, “Hey, I’ll pay that.” Because if you can go to the smaller donors, or just those donors that are always thinking about how much money goes to administration, and get that off there, you know, eliminate that obstacle, you can raise a lot more money.
Steven: I love it. Here’s an interesting one. And I’m guessing there’s a lot of people in this boat. What if you’re an organization where maybe you do research or something that’s not super tactile, or maybe happens kind of internationally, and the donor isn’t able to perhaps experience that in person? Like your great idea, maybe a tour or coming to an event. What can those folks do? Is it live streaming? Is it . . . What have you seen work there?
Tom: Oh, yeah, that’s a great question. And I just got a call from someone yesterday that, you know, wants me to do strategic planning for. It’s an international organization that does some work on chromosomes and stuff. But so I was just talking with that person and I said, “Hey,” you know, do they have virtual reality? Now you can have virtual reality. They have some organizations. There’s this new thing, I forgot the name of the organization, I’m sorry, that’s doing booths. Where you can walk into a booth and then you can experience what they’re experiencing on the other side. So they go into a booth, you go into the booth, and then there’s kind of a virtual reality.
But you can just do . . . you can have amazing videos or streaming where you take them and show them your programming if you’re over in Zambia, or wherever you might be. And have them so they can touch it in some way. But you really want to script it, you just don’t want to have some . . . you want to practice this and you want kind of high quality. There’s something about being spontaneous. But you want to make sure you know, you’re thinking about lighting, you’re thinking about who, what we’re showing, and you don’t want it just to be like, “This is what we do.” You want to have it more like, “This is why we’re doing it, and this is the impact we’re having.” That needs to come through.
And you need to practice it a little and script it because, in the end, I don’t want to trivialize it, but you kind of you want people to get choked up and cry, you know. Or be really moved in some way that the work you’re doing even if you’re doing scientific work instead of just saying, “Oh, this is what we do,” because that’s boring, right? You want to touch their heart if you’re doing something like that, and then you can fill it in with some statistics in the great work you’re doing to go for the left-hand side of the brain. So kind of both sides, the heart, the right side, and the left side, but you really want to make sure I can’t stress it enough practice it, script it, and make it emotional.
Steven: I love it. What about maybe kind of the inverse situation to that, Tom, where maybe people are local or at least, you know, somewhat close. But they haven’t ever moved from being a maybe only online or digital kind of relationship you know, email only or maybe they watch them live stream. And we want them to meet in person but it maybe seems like maybe there’s some resistance to that or they haven’t maybe, you know, taking you up on that invite. Should you have let that go and just say, “Okay, that person doesn’t want to meet in-person, or have you seen maybe any . . .
Tom: No, you know, I think it’s part of it it’s like, is developing this relationship, however you do it. You know, sometimes it’s . . . I mean, you got to look at the segments, right. A donor that’s let’s say you have 1,000 donors, and you have a large percentage of them that are giving under $50, or something, you know, that’s one kind of donor. And you have to think about how you’re going to . . . what kind of . . . you have to look at the channels that you’re using to raise money for the segments of donors you’re approaching, right?
So let’s say you break this up into major donors, mid-level donors, and minor donors. And so each of those different segments, you’re going to approach differently, and you have lots of channels, right? You can do email, you can do direct mail, you could take them out for coffee, right? There’s lots of things that you can do.
And so you really want to think about like, is it worth it to take a $500 donor out for coffee, because that person might have the potential for more. Or to get them connected to the programming to let them see. We all know, think about all of us, we know that we are moved when we see the programming in action. So if they can’t . . . if you don’t have a venue where people can come see the programming in action, then you need to bring it to them.
Now, once I worked with Reality Changers in San Diego, amazing organization. And one of the things they did, so they were working with kids that were from like, the inner city. And then they help provide education opportunities and mentoring after school and then matriculate them into these four-year colleges. And they did such a good job, 5,000 people show up to their graduation when these kids are graduating with the sweatshirts of the organizations . . . I mean, the colleges they got into at SeaWorld. I mean, it’s amazing. And guess what they do. They help these kids tell their stories like they grew up with their mother in a dumpster, and somehow they got out of that, and they got into a school. And now she’s going, the daughter is going to UCLA into med school.
And they have these kids these like eighth-grade, ninth-grade kids practice their stories, and then what they do the organization invites donors to a dinner. And before the dinner like just 20, maybe 10 couples, a handful of kids, maybe three kids will tell their stories, and they’re so powerful, everybody’s crying. And then at dinner, the kids serve the food to the donors, and then sit at the tables and tell their stories to the donors. Now, it is so powerful, you know, and they talk about all the other work they’re doing, right? There’s like all this great stuff. It’s an amazing thing and they have one of these dinners, like once a month, it’s just outstanding.
So the point is this. So if you can create something like that, where you can have the donors come to the programming, but yeah, you might be doing like, helping women that suffered domestic violence. Well, you know, you’re not going to go into the shelter. But maybe there’s an opportunity to do interviews or do something that then you can show video or do something where you’re bringing the programming to them.
Steven: I love it. You said an interesting one. So for people that have maybe large teams, you know, to use your example of the 750 fundraisers, maybe not that big. But they got multiple fundraisers on staff, and they probably also have maybe marketing people, volunteer people, obviously the services people. How have you seen it work where you’re creating kind of an internal rubric where everyone is, you know, everyone knows the stories, everyone’s using the same types of language? There’s kind of a, maybe policy is too strong a word, but everybody’s aligned on, you know, how the organization is described, you know, because it’s one thing. I think this is really excellent for the individual, but they want to get the whole organization on the same page on this stuff. How have you seen that work?
Tom: Okay, so part of that. That’s a great question. So that comes to kind of a communications culture thing, like the messages that we’re going to be. So you can have . . . if you ever, you know, not some organizations are really small and all this is on one person’s shoulders, right? Fundraising, you know, branding, business development, marketing, communications, right. So whether it’s one person or a whole department, it’s really this collective messaging and positioning, that really, really makes a difference.
And so like, the messages are actually the words and the things you’re using. And positioning is how you want to position yourself against other organizations, right? Like how would we position ourselves against another hunger-relief organization? And then how do we want to communicate messages in a way, right, delivered that we want to, like help the brands, the brand of the organization?
One of the things I do in one of my retreats with the board is how to . . . like what should it mean to be part of this board as an ambassador to the organization? You know, you have to have the information, but you also be able to tell the story and again, this idea of going above and beyond. How can we all go above and beyond?
If I’m out and I’m a board member and I’m speaking on behalf of the organization at a civic event, what can I do there to go above and beyond to make that experience with maybe the coordinator and the people I’m with just different, right? Where they go, “Wow, not only is this person different, but that makes the organization different.”
And so yeah, there’s this cultural component, but it really comes back down to the marketing or the fundraising department or the CEO, or the executive director. And say, “We want to position ourselves as an organization that is always going above and beyond in everything we do and say.” Because remember, it’s not just what you do, it’s how you do what you do, right? It’s not what you say, it’s how you say what you say, and it’s the things you do. It’s your personality, your character, and the organization has its own personality and character.
Steven: I love it. Turnover. It’s pretty high for nonprofits, for fundraisers. And the question here is specifically how do you kind of mitigate that if maybe there was a strong relationship between the fundraiser and the donor. Fundraiser’s now gone. Donor is still there, which is good. Reintroducing the new person, the new contact, maybe creating, you know, multiple relationships to mitigate turnover? What have you seen work there?
Tom: Oh, my, gosh. Yeah, if you want to mitigate turnover, you know, this is where the board’s typically, they’re not willing to really fund. You know, the number one reason why someone leaves fundraising department is kind of pay and frustration, right. So it is tough. There is high turnover. And if you look at the organizations that keep fundraisers for a long period of time, they have a really healthy culture. They’re supportive. They have board members who are engaged so it’s not, you know, you don’t feel like you’re going up Everest without any Sherpas when you’re raising money. And so that’s a big part of it, there’s a big cultural component.
So but to keep your fundraisers, you really want . . . that’s what I feel is the most important thing. They need to feel valued and appreciated by not just, you know, the staff, and the CEO, but by the board. They’re doing, especially, in a small organization. You know, they’re carrying a lot of weight, the board puts a lot of pressure on these people, setting realistic goals. I mean, there’s a lot there. Is there something specific you want me to address because that’s a really broad topic?
Steven: Well, I think the question is more around, somebody does leave, you know, and that’s unfortunate. But how do you introduce that existing major donor to the new person?
Tom: Yeah, sorry, I didn’t hear that correctly. Okay. Great, question. Got it now. Got it. So yeah, part of it is keeping really good profiles. Because imagine if your database, like in Bloomerang, right, you didn’t keep a great profile. And then you lose, you know, all that information. And then you bring someone else in and they don’t know anything about the donor. And then what does the donor feel like? They’re like, “Wow, what idiot organization. It’s not so much about the person, but they don’t know, like anything about me? Because I’ve spent the last four years talking with Jenny and she knows my whole life story. And they don’t know anything now? They don’t even know my giving patterns?”
So this, you know, part of it is keeping really, really specific details in the donor profile. That will help the transition a lot. Second is to make a great introduction in a casual setting instead of just showing up. Hopefully, you can have some kind of meet and greet. You know, maybe there’s a lot of donors, and then go around in an environment where you can really be yourself and let your personality.
Because when you, you know, just calling and I’m not saying you can’t, but it’s better that way, some kind of cultivation or stewardship event or something like that, or a gala where it’s easy to mingle with a lot of people really quickly and they can just see like, here you are, you know, your personality and quickly. Versus like, “Okay, you’re going to go out and have coffee,” and it’s like, “Okay, I’m having an interview,” you know what I mean? It’s like you’re feeling like, “Okay, I did this four years ago, and now I’m doing it again.”
So whatever you can do to kind of just make it friendly and fun. But yeah, a good transition, a great introduction if there was a good healthy relationship, maybe the person got promoted to a large organization. They could write a really nice email and saying how great this wonderful new person is and their background and something like that, or the CEO can do it. But, you know, that at least some transition where they’re feeling like okay, they’ve been endorsed and they’re credible, and they’re really a fun, great person. And this is what they like to do and here’s their . . .
Can make it personal, like a little bio, like, “Oh, here’s the sports, they like to do, their interest,” kind of something you’d want to find about the donor. So the donors can find out a lot about you, kind of like think about like, match.com or something. So you can learn a lot about a person quickly.
Steven: I love it. There’s some good questions in here. Probably only time for one more. I’m just looking at the clock. This one I think is particularly timely. Peer-to-peer fundraisers, and events, you know, big season for that coming up at year-end. Those donors are really hard to retain, right? Because they’re giving to that third-party, you know, the person who is fundraising for you. Any tips for maybe stewarding those people when there is kind of that person in between that probably really loves you, but maybe those donors to that campaign don’t necessarily have those feelings yet?
Tom: Yeah, that’s a tough one. I would probably try to provide . . . Well, what I would do is I would provide some education to the people and saying, “Hey, if you’re reaching out to your friends, here’s kind of the positioning.” You know, and you can provide . . . it doesn’t have to be, here’s 20 things to do to be a great fundraiser, but it could be, hey, like, you know, one of the . . . just provide a few things like your passion. Maybe expressing what you’re doing in a way that’s unusual and different, and fun but, you know, and let people . . . you know, don’t put it around you.
I think that’s one of the things, you know, keeping it donor-centric is a really important tip I would give to anyone who’s doing peer-to-peer. Instead of saying, “Hey, you know, we’re trying to,” we, or I. We are trying to raise more money for this new basketball floor for our boys and girls club. Or, you know, “Help me raise money for this boy.” It’s like, No, no, no, let me tell you what your money will do for these kids who wouldn’t otherwise have a basketball court to go play on. Make sure that you’re connecting the donor to whatever it is, the campaign, and the item, or the sponsorship, or whatever it is, the programming. But take yourself and the organization out of it. You’re just conduits.
And yeah, they know they’re helping you. But that’s what you want to say, “Hey, it’s not about me, it’s not about . . . this is I’m passionate about this, and why, you know, I feel you could be passionate or should be passionate about this.” And tell the story that way. Instead of I, I, I, me, me, me, you know, us, us, us take those pronouns away, and it’s just about the beneficiaries, and the impact you’re making.
And I think that giving them a couple of tips because so many people are doing peer-to-peer, especially younger people. It’s just like, “Oh, someone else is asking me for, you know, 10 bucks.” So you got to separate yourself. So help them learn how to separate themselves so people don’t just go, “Oh, another one of these.”
Steven: Yeah, and I think you’re so right on the prep piece is it’s kind of like, “Hey, do a peer-to-peer campaign for us. It’d be awesome.” And the fundraiser like, “Okay, how, like, what? What do I say?” It’s like, the more you give them, the more help, the more successful it’s going to be.
Tom: Well, I’m going to give one more plug. This stuff is all in my “Cloudburst” book. So if you really want to get a fundraising book you’ve never read before, and I’m not . . . I mean, it’s sold 50,000 copies for a reason. So you will get a lot of amazing tips in there as well as if you want if you’re an emerging nonprofit. Or you just want some great reminders about organization development to build really a truly gold standard nonprofit, not just one that gets by, get the other book.
Steven: It’s good. “Cloudburst,” I got “Cloudburst” on here somewhere. I read it on the plane . . . Oh, here it is.
Tom: There it is. It’s made his primary shelf. There’s an endorsement right there.
Steven: I got a couple of emails like you don’t actually have their book behind you? I’m like yeah, it’s behind there, I swear. This is awesome, Tom. It’s 3. I want to be you know, respectful of people’s time. Thanks for doing all the questions. This was really fun. And thanks for hanging out all of you for an hour. I know you’re super busy. We’re coming up on year end. And it was cool to see a full room. So we’re going to send all the resources today, the recording. Just be on the lookout for that from me later on today. I’ll try to get to you before dinnertime I promise. And hopefully, we’ll see you again on next week’s webinar. I’m going to grab the screen real quick from you, Tom.
Tom: Hey, you know what we need to do? We need to do this side by side in your office.
Steven: Yeah, come to Indy. I got plenty of room.
Tom: It’d be we have to do it like a talk show.
Steven: We got plenty of room. There’s not too many people working from the office yet but yeah, we’ll do it. And we’ll choose a day when there’s not eight feet of snow here in Indy, which probably will be pretty easy. Well, hey, we got a great session coming up next week. I hope you all can join. Actually pretty sneaky good dovetail from this session Impact Reporting. My buddy Mandy is going to be on here to talk about taking all those stories and putting it into a nice digestible format for donors. So join us same time same place next Thursday, totally free. If you’re not free, register anyway because you’ll get the recording. We got lots of other sessions you can check out on into next year even. Kind of hard to believe but we’ve got some 2022 sessions. So we’ll call it a day there. Like I said, look for those resources for me later on today and hopefully we will see you again next week. So have a good weekend and stay safe, stay warm out there. We will talk to you again soon. Bye now.