Syncing Your Fundraising Career With Your Personal Values

Christal M. Cherry will show you how to identify the ideal organization with values that align with your fundamental beliefs and lifestyle.

Full Transcript:

Steven: All right. Christal, I got 3:00 Eastern. Is it okay if I go ahead and get this party started?

Christal: Let’s do it.

Steven: All right. Awesome. Well, good afternoon, everybody. Welcome. Thanks for being here. If it is the afternoon, indeed, for you, hope you’re having a good day. If you’re watching the recording, no matter when and where you are, thanks for tuning in. We’re here to talk about aligning, not hustling. You want to stop hustling, you want to align. You want to get synced up with your fundraising career and your personal values. I love it. We’ve been doing a little bit of a self-care theme this month, and we’re going to wrap it up in a big way here in the month of November. So thanks for being here. So glad you’re all joining us. Hope you’re having a good day. Hope you’re staying healthy. I’m Steven. I’m over here at Bloomerang, and I’ll be moderating today’s discussion as always.

Just a real quick couple of housekeeping items, just want to let you all know that we are recording this presentation. I’ll be sending out the recording as well as the slides. So don’t worry, we’re going to get all that good stuff in your hands if you have to leave early, or if you maybe get interrupted by a coworker or a kid that’s stuck at home with you or something like that, don’t worry. The dog bounds into your office and is barking, it’s okay. We’re all in this together. We will get you that slides and recording later on.

But most importantly, please use that chat box. I know a lot of you already have. Say hi, ask questions. We’re going to save some time at the end for Q&A. There’s also a Q&A box, there’s a chat box. We’ll see it. You know, use whatever one is closest to your fingertips. No problem. We will not ignore you. And we will try to get to just as many questions as we can before the 4:00 Eastern hour. You can also do this on Twitter. I’ll keep an eye on the Twitter feed if you want to send us a tweet. I’m into that. That’s cool with me.

If this is your first Bloomerang webinar, welcome. We do these webinars every Thursday afternoon. We are approaching 1,000 sessions in almost 10 years, it’s hard to believe. But wow, it’s been a fun ride, and this is going to be a good addition to the library, I’m sure. But if you aren’t familiar with Bloomerang, we do these webinars, but we are also a provider of donor management software. So check that out if you’re interested, if you’re curious, all kinds of videos and stuff you can watch on our website, pretty easy to find. But don’t do that right now. Wait at least an hour because we want to get you aligned. And we got one of my favorites rejoining the Bloomerang webinar series from beautiful Atlanta, Georgia, Christal. Christal Cherry, how you doing? You doing okay? 

Christal: I’m well. Hey, Steven. Thank you for having me. I’m so excited to be back.

Steven: I’ve been looking forward to this one. It’s always a great session to have Christal on. She brightens my day every time she’s on our webinars series. Did a great session for us last summer. Hard to believe that was last summer, you know, time has new meaning, but here we are back in February on board diversity and kind of challenging racial norms within your board. I’ll put the recording in the chat if you want to check that out. Awesome session, and this one’s going to be just as awesome. 

But if you guys don’t know Christal, check her out. She’s the CEO over at the Board Pro one of my go-to for all things board governance, board diversity. You know, if you’re struggling with that, she can definitely help out. Does a lot of writing and speaking. Has a really cool group called F3, the Fabulous Female Fundraisers, which you’re going to want to check out. If you are a part of that demographic, we’ll give you all the links to that stuff. A board member herself, right? And I always like people who kind of know what they’re talking about, right? It’s a good thing. Also on the faculty at Candid, and just a beautiful human being. And I always learn so much listening to her and reading her. She’s been writing for the Bloomerang blog for quite some time. And, wow, you guys are in for a treat. So I’m going to pipe down because you don’t want to hear from me. I’m a nobody compared to Christal. So, Christal, I’m going to stop sharing and then we’ll see if we can get your beautiful slides going. Take it away.

Christal: Wow. Well, good afternoon, everyone. I’m glad to be back. I’ll guess of those . . . How many . . . 1,000 webinars you said you guys are coming up on? 

Steven: Getting close. Yeah. We’ll have to have a party.

Christal: Oh, my God. I can contribute to two or three of those. That would be awesome.

Steven: Yeah. Yeah.

Christal: All right. Well, I’m going to go ahead and share my presentation here. So welcome to align, not hustle, matching your fundraising career with your values. I’m Christal Cherry. As Steven mentioned, I always like to share a little bit about myself. Anyone who’s ever seen me talk, I always talk about myself in the beginning because I want you to know who’s presenting and I think it’s good to know what we have in common, right? So I’m a 23-year veteran fundraiser in the nonprofit arena. I’m also a board member, which is really important because I actually practice what I preach. I’m a volunteer, I’m a consultant. I am in Toastmasters and honing my speaking skills. So I’m looking for eye contact, and smiling, and all those kind of good things. So you guys keep me in check. 

I’m a supermom, a mompreneur, a lover of anything purple. You guys aren’t feeling very purple-y today, you check out my lipstick. Yes, I’m a native New-Yorker, so whoop, whoop to all my New-Yorkers online. And I am a Snickers groupie. So if you are any of those things, high five, we got some things in common already.

So I want to start my presentation by telling you a little bit about my personal values and why I decided that fundraising was going to be an area that I really wanted to pursue in my career and my life. For me, I really, really rely on this book, “A Spirituality of Fundraising.” I have the book right here in front of me. It’s a very small, thin book that I keep in my pocketbook, particularly when I’m going out to make an ask in front of a donor, because it really gives me the motivation I need to remind me why I’m doing this work. So, for me, my personal values as it comes to fundraising is human connection, giving back, being kind, kindness, caring for others in need of help, and serving others. And so I really believe that asking people for money is giving them the opportunity to put resources at the disposal of God’s kingdom and to raise funds is to offer people the chance to invest what they have in the work of God.

So I’m going to read from page 25. It says, “If we raise funds for the creation of a community of love, we are helping God build a kingdom. We are doing exactly what we’re supposed to be doing as Christians.” So, for me, fundraising is part of my ministry and part of the reason why I believe God has me here on the earth, right? So that I can give back, I can pour it back into the kingdom. I can do the things that pleases him. So I just like to start off by sharing a little bit about that. If you’ve not, you know, read this book, it’s really, really great. It’s a small thing. You can put it in your purse. I think it was like 10, 12 bucks. Really, really good if you’re a fundraiser. So please get that.

All right. So I want to talk to you a little bit about your personal values and how they should align with your work, right? And so your values really just kind of tell a lot about who you are, right? The root of who you are. So today we’re going to identify your core values, we’re going to talk about organizational values, and then we go to create an action plan so that you know exactly what you should do to find a job that matches your values. 

So about your values, right? They reflect your fundamental beliefs about who you are, your practices, your ideals. They’re subtle and implicit. They reflect who you are right now, right? Because we know as we age, you know, you keep living, your values change. So when I was a younger person, I wanted to live in the city, close to the action and being, you know, near all the eateries, and the clubs, and the bars. And now as an older person, my values have changed. I want to live in the suburbs where it’s quiet, where my son can ride his bike and be safe. So values reflect where you are in your life right now. They reveal what’s most important to you. They gives you a sense of purpose . . . Excuse me. And they navigate how you operate in the society.

Okay. Sorry. So . . . I’m sorry here. I’m just wanting to move this out of the way here, because I can’t see. So know your work values. And each one, again, values are going to differ per person. So for some people, their values are going to be honesty, trust, excellence, accountability. Well, I want to talk to you about your core values for work. You have intrinsic values that motivate you and help you to feel fulfilled like giving back to society. Like for me, giving back and giving back to the kingdom of God. Extrinsic values . . . I always have trouble saying that. Extrinsic values relates to tangible rewards and work environment. So, for instance, it’s how much you get paid or working part of a team, of being of influence to someone and your lifestyle values, which is the complete picture of who you are in terms of whether you like to live in a big city, whether you want to travel far, you want to work from home. Those are all values that we have.

So let’s talk about work cultures that reflect values. So a relaxed culture where work-life balance is important, where there’s casual dress, kids can come to work. People bring their dogs to work. Real casual. For some people, they love working in an environment like that. For other people, they love working in a tall, busy office building where there are a lot of people in the lobby and lots of elevators going up and down and buzzing, buzzing, as people getting off and on. 

You know, sometimes it’s having a culture where there’s a open and trusting relationship between you and your supervisor who really cares and invests in the wellbeing of his or her staff members. An executive team that models good behavior and helps to create a great workplace to grow and thrive. Opportunity to make lots of money and winning means more customers, more sales, more revenue. An environment where professional development is offered for internal promotion and a place where there’s lots of structure and guidelines, a place where women and people of color are valued, and included, and inspired here. So these are all different kinds of values that you might have, that work cultures have that will reflect whether or not this is a good place for you.

So I found this right on this organization’s website ACT College and Career Readiness is a nonprofit organization. And I really liked what they say. So you need to find an organization where their values are evident. So just right on their website, this nonprofit talks about their staff and how they value them. “Our staff is part of an organization dedicated to an important mission, helping people achieve education and workplace success.” And then they go on and talk about their three guiding principles, “Holistic. We assess and appreciate each person’s unique traits and skills to help navigate towards college and career success. We’re inclusive. We do everything we can to help level the playing field for everyone regardless of needs or backgrounds. We’re transformational. We lead the industry through our research and technology, constantly evolving as an integral part of the learning process.” So you can look at an organization’s website or a company’s website and look at the words that they use, look at the values that they share and you could pretty much tell whether or not this is an environment that you think that you might, you know, that you might flourish in. So I encourage you to do that.

So let’s talk about some ethics in fundraising. You know, being honest in fundraising is really important. And a lot of times we have to sign a conflict of interest form when we take jobs as fundraisers. You know, having respect for the community that you’re serving. You know, sometimes we’re serving communities that don’t look like us in areas where they don’t have the same resources that we have and we want to make sure that, you know, they’re respected as well. Financial transparency in fundraising, letting our donors know exactly how their funds are being spent. 

Respecting donors’ privacy, not having checks laying around. I found a $3,000 check in the drawer one time that it had been sitting in that drawer for three months that had not been cashed and sent in by a donor. That is not respect for donors, you know? 

Curbing our aggressive tactics, being responsive, being donor-centered, and treating our donors like family. That’s all ethics in fundraising. 

So my question is, have you ever had to compromise your values to close a gift, write a grant, or deliver a project? Give that some thought. Let’s see what people are saying, Steven. Have you ever had to compromise your values to close a gift, write a grant, or deliver a project? 

Let me give you an example. One of your board members, Louis, is the chief of police in the county that the kids in your programs live. He has just learned that one of your biggest funders, ECT Foods, will not pay their fourth quarter gift to your organization because they’re diverting funds to Florida where they are headquartered. Hurricanes and tornadoes have decimated whole neighborhoods there and the state is in crisis. Louis has a special fund in his department with money seized from drug deals and stolen guns. He has offered to make a generous donation of $100,000 to help save the summer feeding program that feeds more than 10,000 kids. Do you have any reservations about accepting this gift? 

So here’s my poll question. No reservations at all. Yes, I’d feel comfortable taking this dirty money even though I know it was for good, or I need to talk about it with my team to figure out how to handle this decision. I would love to see your answers in the chat.

Steven: We’ve got some major reservations. Lots of people saying they want to talk to their team, Christal.

Christal: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there’s some people who are like, you know, “I don’t care. Just give us the money so I can make my goal.” I mean, that’s a value, right? 

Organizational values that matter, they set the tone for workplace culture and highlight what the organization really cares about. So they’re going to talk about what matters most to the organization, they’re going to reveal how the organization invests its resources. It shows how the organization experiences most of its successes and when employees have felt most alive and celebrated and the indications for greater team coherence and productivity.

Oh, I love this. So I actually did this at one of my one of my last jobs. We created a bravo board in the break room so that our coworkers had an opportunity to celebrate one another and to celebrate our wins, right? And so, you know, you can just do this with a corkboard and some sticky pins, and people could just put up their notes and thank coworkers for helping them get, you know, meet the deadline and helping them to win the grant or close the gift or whatever it is. But you want organizations that . . . Excuse me. That value this, you know, that they know what value alignment feels like. So they know their values, they model these values. They communicate their values across all levels of the organization and they celebrate employees who exemplify the company’s core values.

So as a board member and also as a development officer, I would often want to bring in staff people of the organization I worked with at our board meetings so that we could share some wins. So if someone was responsible for writing a grant, I would want that person to come in and maybe meet some board members and share what that experience was like. Or if we launched a new program or if we closed the gift, you know, so having those wins celebrated so that everybody gets to see and feel the goodness, you know, of the work that you’re doing. We call those mission moments, right? But having a culture where those kinds of things are encouraged and celebrated is awesome and it makes people really feel good about being there.

Okay. I don’t know about you guys. I have been here when your job and your career values, your job and your personal values don’t match. You have physical ailments, you’re irritable. You know, you don’t want to go to work and when you go to work, you don’t really want to do anything. You’re feeling some resentment, you know, because of your supervisor. You’re just straight depressed. I don’t know if anybody else has been there. This is when you know you have a problem and it’s time to make a change. 

When you have no real passion for your mission, ministry, and donors, it’s time to go. And your energy lags, except at 5:00 when it’s time to run out the door, your work ethic is weak and you only want to do the minimal requirements of your job, you’re not in a good space. Your people skills are wanting and you want to be reclusive, and you could be insecure, insensitive. This is not the right job for you. You feel lost in your role, you’re not sure if your contribution is eating meaningful, maybe it’s time to have a talk with your supervisor. 

You have demonstrated the ability to talk about fundraising rather than actually doing it, maybe fundraising is not what you’re supposed to be doing. You have a high tendency to make assumptions rather than dig for facts. You’re constantly in search of the magic bullet that will turn everything around. You’re not trusting. You’re not a trusting delegate, or conversely, you delegate everything. You don’t want to do anything. Or you lack the energy and curiosity to constantly learn about the best practices in fundraising.

Let’s face it, fundraising is hard work. It is hard work. It is a commitment and not everybody is built for it. And so, you know, if you realize that any of these things are happening for you, maybe you’re not in the right career. Maybe you’re not working for the right nonprofit. Maybe you don’t have the right supervisor supporting you. And these are the kinds of things that you really need to think about as you start your career and as you continue your career. 

So I implore you to find a job that aligns with who you are with your core values. And that means in order for that to happen, you have to know who you are and what your goals are. You know, be active in your community, tell your friends and your connections what you’re looking to do. Include values in your resume and/or your cover letter and research before you apply and interview for jobs. 

You know, we always think, you know, we’re looking for a job. We want people to select us. We should select who we want to work for. You know? We have some control and power over that. Be selective with your job hunt to align your core values with companies that appeal to you. So if you’re looking for a job, instead of just looking for a job, look for the organization that’s doing meaningful work with values that resonate with you, that aligns with you. Don’t sacrifice your values, discuss them during job interviews. Go with your gut, it’s usually right.

So, you know, work values to consider as a fundraiser, you want a CEO who really believes in the importance of building a trusting relationship with staff and really believes in your future and wants to develop you. So I once as a supervisor asked my team at a team meeting to all bring their resumes in and everyone got very nervous. I was like, “No worry, no one’s getting fired. No one’s getting written up. I really want to make sure that your resume is up-to-date. You know, we want to make sure that you’re getting as much professional development as you can. My job as your supervisor is to build you up and to help you become the leader that you can be. And then maybe if you want to move on from here, you know, in a few years, then you’re in a position to do so.” 

So I really want to encourage you to get the professional development that you need, make sure that your resume looks right. You never know when the opportunity may come up, that you weren’t even expecting, or, you know, the fundraising team is always very vulnerable right there. You ever had that conversation when the door opens and your boss or the CEO is in the doorway saying, “We’re going to have to let some folks go?”

You don’t want to be that person who’s caught off guard and your resume is in the bottom of the drawer. You haven’t seen it in two years because you thought your job was safe. So I encourage my team to bring their resumes in. And we spent a few minutes during our meeting, going over our resumes to make sure that we had all the skillsets that we needed for the roles that we’re in, what things we’re missing, what gaps we’re missing, what professional development do you need in order for you to do a better job? Or you want to go into marketing, perhaps you need to hone these skills, or you want to go into, you know, events planning, maybe you need to hone these skills. And let’s make sure we can get those on your resume. 

So you want a supervisor like that who’s willing to invest in you as a person, not so much because I want you to work for me forever, right? Because you’re 35, you know, you’re not going to retire here maybe, or maybe not, but I want to prepare you for your next job. So you want a supervisor like that.

You want a culture that respects work-life balance, particularly these days. You know that as a fundraiser, I learned as I moved forward in my career, what to ask for, you know, and once I became a mom, having flexibility to go to my son’s school when needed, or to work from home, if he was ill, I needed to have that flexibility. And so in my interviews, I learned to ask for those things, and you want a culture where they respect work-life balance. If you’re driving 45 minutes to an hour and a half to work every day, that’s probably making you a little crazy, particularly if you live in Atlanta like I do. So being able to work for home, it eases that stress, right? 

An environment that offers you administrative support. You know, often we’re a one-man fundraising office, right? We’re doing everything and not to have someone who can help you write your letters, you know, get your checks in the system, steward those donors the way they need to be stewarded shows the value of your nonprofit. They don’t really value the function of development and the role that you bring and the contributions that you bring. So I always look for an organization that says, “Of course, we have an admin to help you, even if it’s just a part-time person, but we realize how important your role is here and we want to make sure that you have all the tools that you need for you to be successful.” Right?

Doing the right thing when money is being donated. Again, when I talked about privacy, respect, and recognition, if a donor says that he wants his gift to be anonymous, then you don’t put his or her name in the annual report. You don’t have his or her check laying around so that people can see it, right? 

How about a culture where other departments has talking points and they can recite the mission and case for support and they understand the roles that they play in fundraising? Oh, my goodness. That’s the fundraisers dream right there. I know so many people probably could really appreciate that one. 

An office where you hear thank you 100 times a day. “Thank you, John, for getting that report.” And, “Thank you, John . . . ” I mean, “Lisa, for helping out with that project. Thank you . . . ” I remember one time we were putting in a grant and, of course, we were right up to the deadline and I jumped in my car and delivered that grant in person, delivered it in person to that office and when I got back, you know, my staff had cupcakes, they brought cupcakes. I mean, just little things like that that make you feel like, “Okay, I am appreciated. People see that I have some value here.” So you want to be in a culture where wins are celebrated and acknowledged.

I found this company called The Mom Project, you all. It is awesome. They have turned recruitment into a movement and they really show that they understand the issues, and concerns, and values of working moms. And so they connect talented women with employers who respect work and life integration. Seventy-five percent of women surveyed believe employer support or work-life flexibility is the most critical area for feeling respected at work. They work with companies that understands that as a mom, particularly if you’re a new mom, you may need, you know, a breastfeeding room. You may need to leave early if your children get out of school at 3:00, so you may want to work from home part of the day. You know, you may want to have alternate Mondays off or alternate Fridays off. You as a mom has special needs and values that are important to you at this point in your life and you want to work for someone who understands those values, recognizes them, and are willing to have you part of the team even when they have to make some allowances.

And so a company like The Mom Project is awesome. I actually went on a couple of interviews with them and I love them. So, again, finding companies that will help align you and connects you with organizations that really appreciate where you are in your life at this moment. 

Hey, Steven, we got any good questions coming in? I’d like to interact with the audience a little bit. What do people say? 

Steven: Yeah. There was a bullet point, I think, on the last slide about managing up. What does that look like, Christal? Have you kind of seen that in action? What are some characteristics of that?

Christal: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So managing up is really . . . I mean, it’s really good. Letting your supervisor know what you need from him or her, you know, particularly once you’ve, you know, been in your field for a long time. If you’re a newbie, you need a lot of handholding. But if you’re someone like me who comes into a job, I’ve been fundraising for 25 years, there’s a lot of things I don’t need from my supervisor. I don’t need to be micromanaged, right? And I want to be respected. I want to have a voice on this team. You know, I want to know that if I have an idea, that it’s going to be, you know, considered. And so I just think you have an obligation to yourself to let your supervisor know what he or she can do to help you be successful in your role. There are some folks who are micromanagers. I don’t work well with people like that.

Some people need the structure, some people want people telling them what to do so they know exactly what they’re supposed to be doing every minute of the day. That is not me. So usually if I take a job, I will manage up and tell the supervisor about who I am, what I need, what kind of support I need, what areas I’m not strong in. Like, for instance, in fundraising, planned giving is an area that I’m still working through. As many years as I’ve been doing it, it’s not my area of specialty. And so I might, if I had a planned giving prospect, say to my supervisor, “I might need some support with this particular prospect or this particular donor.” So I think managing up and letting your manager know who you are, what you need really makes a lot of sense. And then also finding out something about your manager or supervisor. We’re going to talk about that in a little bit, but I think managing up is something that is really important and it’ll just make the relationship between you and your supervisor so much easier. All right. Any other questions, Steven?

Steven: I think that was the most timely one. I’d say keep trucking.

Christal: All right. So it’s important to know work values that employers are seeking. They want honesty and integrity. They want a strong work ethic. They want dependability and responsibility, self-motivators, people who are inspired to be independent, having a positive attitude, independent thinking, self-confidence professionalism, and loyalty. So these are key words that you want to make sure that you have in your cover letter and in your resume and that you speak up in an interview because these are the values that they’re seeking. You know, sometimes we don’t get them back. But these are the values that they want from us. And I think once we get in there, then we have to hold them accountable so that they are in turn returning these same values back to us as employees.

So what to look for in a nonprofit with strong fundraising values. The goals and visions of the nonprofit should first meet the needs of the community that’s being served. Your leadership should fully understand and support the nonprofit’s mission, vision, and goals. 

And this is really a good one because, you know, having worked with a lot of boards, I’ve been in board meetings where I’ve asked board members, “What is the mission of this organization?” And it’s just always interesting to partake in that exercise because inevitably, by the time we get to the end of the room where everyone’s talked, spoken, the mission has changed, and you realize, people are not 100% sure of what we do. So having leadership that fully understand and support the nonprofit’s mission, vision, and goals. That means your mission and your vision should be in your office somewhere, it should be on a wall in a hallway, it should be in your collateral, it should be on your website. It should be on your Facebook page so that people are clear exactly what you do. 

A successful nonprofit should be volunteer led where you have a lot of folks that are coming in and lending a hand to support the work that you do.

Start with the strengths and resources that are currently available. You know, there are a lot of folks who have volunteers at their fingertips. And I remember working at a homeless shelter where we had, I don’t know how many volunteers we had coming through our doors every year, 10,000 volunteers. And we were not having them sign in. So we didn’t know anything about them, right? We didn’t know where they worked. We didn’t know what they did. We didn’t know why they were volunteering. And I think that was such a missed opportunity. 

So I started making it my business to find out who these people were and guess what? They worked at Delta, and Chick-fil-A, and Lockheed Martin and some of the companies that I was trying to get into as a fundraiser. And I had people who were coming through my doors every single day who worked there, who had connections at those companies. And because we weren’t doing a good job of really getting to know our volunteers, we were missing out on so many great opportunities. That’s a value, a value to really know and understand the people who are supporting you. So that’s a resource that we had available to us that we were missing.

A fundraising initiative should be guided by a plan that is derived from the organization’s strategic and business plan influenced by market research and the operations of nonprofits should be open and transparent. So when you’re looking for a nonprofit and you’re the fundraiser, these are the kinds of things that you should be looking for in your nonprofit. 

And, you know, as you get older, as you start doing this work more, you know, you realize there’s some questions that you should be asking in your interviews. So I have learned when, you know, when they ask you in an interview, “Do you have any questions?” Oh, I break it out. I have, you know, 10 to 12 questions ready, you know, to say that you don’t have any questions is not a good sign, but I do all of my thorough research because I want to know not only whether or not, you know, I’m a good fit for them, but whether they’re a good fit for me. So I have learned to ask really the biggest question, particularly as the chief development officer, can you describe the CEO, how would people say how . . . what is the perception of him here at the organization? How does he get along with employees here? Not just the executive team. I’m talking about the guy who cleans the bathrooms, like what kind of relationship does the CEO have?

What is the work culture here? What is your work-from-home policy? Are there flex hours? Is there comp time? How open is management to receiving new ideas and feedback? The worst thing is to be in a meeting where you have a CEO who is dominating and really doesn’t want to hear anyone else’s ideas. And so everyone just kind of sits there and listens and nods and when he asks if there are any questions, no one ever has any question, no one ever contributes any new ideas. That is really not a really great environment to be in. So I ask that question in my job interview, how open is management to new ideas and feedback? How often does the development team meet? 

Will there be an administrative support for me as a fundraiser? Am I going to be expected to do everything, clean the floors and everything? How are big wins celebrated here? How is performance measured for this role? How is the development team viewed and received by other departments? 

That’s another big one. You know, the programs team has no idea what the development team does or the finance team has no idea what the development team does. That’s not good, you know, and one of the things I would always do when I would take on jobs is I would make it my business to get to know folks from other departments and share with them some things that we’re doing in the development office so that they were clear, you know, having some lunch and learns where we’re doing Development 101 workshops, where they can come in and ask questions and we could talk to them a little bit about how you as the programs person or as a finance person, what role you can play in fundraising here at the organization. That’s a value for a culture that you really want to be in.

So you wanted to lean into some questions that they might even ask you, right? They might ask you a question like, “Has there ever been a time when your beliefs clashed with someone else’s on your team? If so, how did you overcome those differences?” Right? So they’re letting you know, we have a lot of different people here with a lot of different opinions, and beliefs, and views. Are you going to be able to fit in with that? You know, we may have some baby boomers, we may have some millennials, we may have some gen-Zs, all of whom have very different values and beliefs about the way things go. 

For instance, I remember working for a nonprofit and we were trying to decide whether or not we should continue to have our annual breakfast which was like seven o’clock in the morning at the World Congress Center, you know, tickets for like 75 bucks and all of the gen-X and gen-Z and even some millennials were saying, “No one wants to come to a breakfast at 7:00 in the morning at the World Congress Center. Who wants to do that?” You know? It had been something we had been doing for 20 years. We just always did it. We never questioned it. And then we had some older folks on the team who said just that, “Well, it’s what we’ve always been doing. That’s how we always do. We don’t want to change that.” And they were saying, “Things are different now. Donors are different. They don’t want to get up at that early time in the morning to come sit for some dry eggs and, you know, bacon, pay 75 bucks.” 

So, you know, having those kinds of differences in opinions on a team, how do you work through those? “Describe a time when you had to work with a variety of people, how did you go about identifying and understanding their points of view? How did you adapt your own working style to work more effectively with these people? What was the outcome?”

So when you get those kinds of questions in the interview, they’re checking for you to see what your values are and how you’re going to fit in to their environment. So be cognizant of those kinds of questions. 

So finding an organization that will allow you to get to know your supervisor, and this is another thing that I’ve learned before I take a job. Is it okay for me to have coffee or lunch with a supervisor or my potential supervisor before I take this job? Because I really want to know who he or she is. We know, particularly as fundraisers, your supervisor can make or break your experience, right? I mean, you could have a wonderful organization with a great mission, with great volunteers, and even resources at your fingertips for you to be a great fundraiser, but if your supervisor doesn’t get it, or if your supervisor is a jerk, or she is a micromanager, that’s going to make your life a living hell in any kind of a job, actually, but particularly in fundraising, is I have learned that I can choose my boss, right? 

And so if I apply for a job, the organization seems perfect, it’s not far from my house. They have a great work from home policy, all the things that I want and I meet with my boss and he or she and I don’t click, or I just feel like, “Mm-mm. This is not going to be a good look for me.” This is not the right job for me, because at this point in my life, right? A value that I have is that I want peace at work. I want contentment. I want a supervisor who trusts me, who really wants to feed into my own professional development.

And if I have in my first coffee meeting with you, if I’m sensing that you’re not meeting those needs, this is not going to be a good fit. So I think the onus is on us on the frontend to do the legwork upfront, to do a little bit more research on the organizations that we’re applying to, not just, “Oh, I need a job because it’s going to pay my bills.” Of course, we do. Of course, not just, “I need a job that’s going to make 85,000 or more.” Of course, we want, you know, to make good money, but what really is important is for me to go to work and be able to be successful because I have a boss that really invests in me, or I have a team that really wants us all to be successful. Choose your boss. You can do that. I promise. So I’m going to stop here, Steven, to see if anyone disagrees with me or has any questions or comments about this.

Steven: Well, I haven’t seen any disagreements, only lots of people loving what you’re saying. There was a question about what you just said about kind of interviewing for your boss, one question, specifically, you know, should you request that in the process of interviewing? It sounds like this person did some interviews but didn’t get the alone time with the direct manager. Is that something that is appropriate to ask for? Or do you think . . . 

Christal: Absolutely. Absolutely. Would it be possible for me to have a coffee? I mean, you can do a phone call, you can do a Zoom meeting now. You know, back in the old days when we met in person, you can go and ask the request, “I want an eyeball contact because, you know, my relationship with my supervisor was going to have to be a good one. You know, we’re trying to raise money. This is a hard thing, and I need to be able to look in his or her eyeballs and really know that I am working for the right person for me.” Right? Everybody’s not right for everybody else. What kind of boss is right for you? And only you know that, and you should have a right to get to know that person, or at least spend a little time with that person before you make a decision. And if they say no or if the boss seems reluctant, maybe it’s not the right culture for you.

Steven: Mm-hmm. That’s a red flag, right?

Christal: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So anyway, let’s keep it moving. All right. So I don’t know about you guys. I want an advancement leader. I don’t want a fundraising boss. I want an advancement leader who says to me, “How many prospects are returning your calls?” Not, “How many prospects did you contact?” Why aren’t more prospects responding?” No. “Why aren’t your numbers better?” Because all of those . . . you see the language, it puts you on defense. “What did you learn about their values? How many asks did you make this week? What do they need?” You know? When would they be ready for an ask? You know? If they said yes, can we deliver on our promise? When will you close these gifts? Right? 

And so you want a boss who understands really the importance of building relationships and the way that they speak to you, the questions that they ask, the language that they use when they’re speaking to you, as your supervisor, it really impacts you. You’re going to be feeling some kind of way. You’re going to be feeling on defense. What do you mean how many asks did I make this week? Maybe I only made six. So that doesn’t mean I didn’t do a great job. You know? 

So you want a supervisor who really understands the value of building relationships, understanding what your clients need and your donors need being donor-centered and making sure that you’re aligning with the values of your donors, right? So not only are you aligning your values, but also who are the donors who are going to be at this nonprofit that I’m going to be working with. Are these donors, you know, supposed to all the donors are gun owners and you’re a guest, you know? You’re one of these persons who believes that, you know, really strongly about gun reform. So, you know, maybe that’s not the right organization for you. So I’m just saying that you need to do a lot more research on the organization’s values, the supervisor, who the donors are, all of those things are values that you need to find out whether or not they align with yours. I want an advancement leader. I don’t want to fundraising boss.

All right. So creating an action plan. Know your why. Know what motivates you and what makes you happy. Guess what? You have a right to be happy at work. It doesn’t have to be a miserable thing. We’re there all damn day. Excuse my French, Steven. We’re there all day. We need to be happy. We need to be getting some joy out of our work. So know what makes you happy, what motivates you to work hard. And identify organizations that values that align with yours. Again, read about the CEO. You know, often there’ll be, you know, these days you can Google the CEO, they’ll have a LinkedIn page. They may have written a blog. They may have been honored somewhere. Really do your research on who the CEO of this organization is or at least your supervisor of the organization, but particularly the CEO, because it’s going to come from the top-down.

And so if you have a CEO who’s known for building leaders and who is known for really caring about the people who works for him, that’s the kind of guy that you want. You know, you don’t want that guy who has a really bad reputation and who will chop you at the neck if you don’t agree with everything he says or everything she says. 

How about you do some work and talk to individuals who actually work there? I have done informational interviews before taking a job. Just calling someone and just say, “Hey, listen, I’m interviewing for a role here. I see you’re the communications officer. Do you mind chatting for a few moments about, you know, about the culture here?” 

I remember one time coming out of a job need to be where I was in the restroom. And I was in the restroom with the lady. She was putting on her makeup and I was washing my hands at the sink and she said, “Oh, are you here for a job interview?” And I said, “Well, actually I am.” And she smiled and she was wash . . . And I said so, you know, “Do you like working here?” And she was like, “Yeah, it’s okay.” And I said, “So, well, how do they treat women of color here?” Because she was a white woman. And, you know, her face got all red, you know? And I said, “Well, I’m sorry if I’m making you feel uncomfortable, I just want to get a good feel for, you know, how I would be received here.” And she said, “We have . . . actually, we have three or four VPs who are people of color here.” And I said, “Oh, really?” So, I mean, just asking the right questions of the right people before you make a decision.

Again, reading carefully the way they communicate on their website, the words that they’re using on their website, like the example I gave you with the organization [act 00:41:59], they talked about being inclusive and being transformational, right? Really caring about their staff people. Now, whether or not that’s true or not, this is what it says on the website. So, I mean, if they’re giving you the wrong message, that’s another story. That’s an ethical issue. But my point is, what is that outward-looking face like to the world? And we can look at those things and dig a little deeper before we decide we’re going to jump in and take jobs that are not right for us. And then, of course, apply to jobs that excite and intrigue you. 

So I say, my advice is to find out what you love doing, go for it, find out what moves you, what are your values? What makes you function? What makes you tick? What makes you want to get up and go to work every day?

For me, it’s this. For me, it my personal convictions, it’s my purpose for being here. It’s my relationship with God and the things that I think he wants to do for me. What is it for you? You have to make that decision and you have to decide. And finding an alignment between your career and your core values produces satisfaction and fulfillment, and a sense of purpose and happiness at home at work. 

So, for me, right now, these purple Chucks with prints on it, that’s the value. There are $175 on etsy.com and they’re in my chart. They’re in my cart, and I am really thinking hard about whether I’m going to spend $175 on some Chucks, but I love them. So I’m just saying, “If this is a value for me, I’m going to go ahead and get them.” I just thought I would share a little levity here as part of my presentation. But, no, I love purple. I love Chucks. I love Prince. It just makes sense, right?

Anyway, you’ve got to find joy in everything that you’re doing. So, remember, you’re the author of your life. You can choose the characters, craft your own narrative, and write your own story, and don’t allow the fear of now to rob you of the courage for next. And that’s pretty much my presentation, Steven. So I made it short because I wanted to make sure that that we had time for questions, if anyone has any. I just, you know, implore you to keep calm and find your dream job, find the one that really aligns with who you are as a person, and then go for it, but do your homework first before you jump in. You can contact me at theboardpro.com. My email is [email protected]. I’m on LinkedIn and I’m on Facebook. So I’m going to stop sharing, Steven, to see if anyone has any questions.

Steven: There are some good ones. And, Christal, I got an idea for you. Let’s go half in on the shoes. I’ll put up the 75 and we can have a joint custody situation. And we’ll mail them back and forth.

Christal: Aren’t those shoes awesome?

Steven: Those are awesome. I’m also a Prince fan. So I should have put the purple connection together. That makes a lot of sense.

Christal: Well, you notice my presentation is purple. Did you get that?

Steven: Yeah.

Christal: I told you I’m feeling very purple-y. I’m feeling very purple-y.

Steven: This is great. This is so much fun. And from what I can see in the chat, also folks are enjoying it too. So thank you. Thank you. This was a sneaky, good job-seeker presentation, also good for managers. I mean, I’m a manager, not of an enormous team, but I learned a lot and caught some of my own bad habits through the course of this too. So thank you.

Christal: You’re welcome.

Steven: This was awesome. And yeah, we got time for questions, at least 10 minutes. We’ll use 10. And, by the way, folks, I’ll keep all the questions anonymous. So if you put them in the chat there, you know, no problem. I’m not going to read any names because I have some of this as, you know, a lot of this is kind of sensitive and some of you are in maybe not in great places right now. But, Christal, more than a few people have asked kind of variations of the same question, which is they’ve got a great boss but their boss is not so great. Any advice for that situation where that kind of upper management is maybe I’m kind of making things tough but your immediate supervisor is just great, doing all the things you’re talking about?

Christal: Yeah. And I’ve been in that situation. And that works for a while because your supervisor can act sort of as a buffer if it’s not required that you have a lot of interaction with the top boss, but what happens when your supervisor leaves? Which is what happened to me and now you have to have more interaction with your CEO. 

I will give you an example. I did this presentation for another group and we had to do group breakouts. So I did a scenario which I’ll share with you. So here’s the scenario. You are three weeks into your new job, right? And you’re now at your first all-staff meeting where your boss and your boss’s boss and everybody is there. You’ve only had lunch with your immediate boss once because there was a board meeting and she was not available because she was getting ready for the board meeting.

So you haven’t really had a whole lot of interaction with her, you’ve met with a couple of your colleagues. Everyone seems really cool. You walk into your first all-staff meeting, everyone seems a little tense and you’re not really sure why. And so you’re excited because, you know, you’re hoping that there are going to be introductions, everybody’s going to tell them who you are and what you’re going to bring to the organization. 

And the CEO comes in a huff, you know, his clothes are kind of, you know, disheveled, he’s late, you know, he comes in and, you know, he starts to meaning and you notice right from the very beginning he’s curt, you know, he’s kind of dismissive of people. He’s short and snappy and even maybe a little male chauvinist. And you’re like, “What is going on here?” You’re looking around and looking to see if anyone else is . . . no one else was looking like anything is, you know, apparently they’re accustomed to this. He is even starting to use some profanity in this meeting. And you’re like, “Holy smokes. What the heck? I was just at a great job. I left for this?” 

And so you’re not introduced. You thought you were going to be introduced. You’re not introduced. And on your way out of the meeting, your supervisor says to you at the doorway, “Welcome to the Hell Pit.” What do you do? Your supervisor’s great. You know, you’ve had lunch with her, she’s cool. You’ve met a couple of your colleagues, but you’ve just come out of your all-staff meeting with the CEO and I’ve just told you about him or her. I said to him, but it could be a her.

They’re in a huff, they’re nasty, they’re dismissive, they’re using profanity, they’re male chauvinist. You’re three weeks in. What do you do? The breakout was I don’t do anything, I just go to my office, and I just chill and just kind of wait. I request to meet with my supervisor to find out just what was that, what was happening. I called my old job to see if my position is still open, or maybe I’m mosey down the hallway to another staffer’s office just to kind of see, get the 411, was that normal? What’s happening? So I’m curious, from your audience, what would you do in a situation like that? We spent a whole 20 minutes in a breakout just talking about this, but I’m curious to know what your folks would say.

Steven: Wow. Let’s see if they start coming in. I don’t know what I would do.

Christal: Yeah. Because your CEO is at the top. He or she is setting the tone for how things will go. Even if your supervisor is awesome, you have a CEO who’s behaving that way in a meeting and no one is saying anything. I guess they’re just accustomed to him coming in that way, what would you do three weeks into a new job?

Steven: A lot of people are saying they would ask, “Hey, is that normal?” Or was that . . . Because they’re new, they don’t really know the guy, right? Or gal, or whatever. Yeah.

Christal: Would you run for the hills? Would you start like, “You know what? I’m not even going to finish unpacking my boxes. I might have to be out of here soon.”

Steven: Not seeing that quite yet, but mostly like seeing a lot of curiosity, like, “Hey, maybe they’re having a bad day. You know, maybe that was a one-off situation.” That seems to make sense to me because maybe they were just having a bad day. Not to excuse the behavior, but still. Yeah.

Christal: That is a real life situation. I have a friend information like that and she’s still there and she’s miserable. So, yeah, I just wondered. I mean, but, to me, you know, if you want to work in an environment like that, that’s a value, whether or not you can work in an environment that’s toxic or with a person who talks to people and treats people that way. You know, I don’t want to work in an environment like that, particularly as a fundraiser, right? Because, you know, I’m trying to bring people into the story of the organization and we don’t want her meeting a CEO like that.

Steven: I know. That’s a bad first impression.

Christal: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it made for a great breakout story and we got lots of good . . . 

Steven: That’s cool.

Christal: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Any other questions, Steven?

Steven: Yeah. Well, you know, along those same lines, we’ve had a lot of people saying in here that they love the mission of the nonprofit. They love the work. I mean, they feel like that’s the work they were born to do, not just what they do today, but what, you know, the work of the nonprofit too, you know, the disease they’re curing or whatever it is they’re trying to solve in the world. But they’ve got all this other stuff that’s not aligned that you’ve been talking about. What do you think should weigh more there, right? I mean, if the beneficiaries are getting those life-changing services and that’s what they want to be doing, what do you think about those folks who are in that specific situation?

Christal: You know, and so no non-profit is . . . no work environment is going to be ideal, is going to be perfect, right? You know, we always say every nonprofit has a little dysfunction going on there. You have to decide how much and what kind of dysfunction you’re willing to tolerate. So for some people, having a boss like the one I just shared, doesn’t bother them. They’re like, “Well, as long as I keep getting paid, he doesn’t bother me, I don’t give a flip what he does in the staff meeting.” You know, other people might be like, “You know what? I can’t work in an environment like that for a person who treats people that way and, you know, this makes people feel uncomfortable. We can’t all be productive and we all feel threatened or if we all feel like we can’t speak up.” 

So I think you have to decide what’s right for you. There are a lot of organizations doing wonderful things, a lot of organizations doing wonderful things. That doesn’t mean it’s the right place for you. You know, there are plenty of organizations that help kids with autism. So if that’s your organization and your boss or your supervisor is a jerk, go find another organization that’s helping kids with autism. You don’t have to stay there.

Steven: That makes sense. What about a know-it-all boss? This is a phrase that has come up a few times here in the Q&A. Maybe not necessarily bad manager, but, you know, maybe they’re not listening to the ideas all the time, they kind of do things their own way. Any advice there?

Christal: Yeah. And the worst thing is to be hired as a fundraiser and then not be respected for your fundraising council [inaudible 00:52:41].

Steven: That’s never happens, Christal. What are you talking about?

Christal: You know, it’s like, you hired me to do this job because you thought that I had the skillset and experience and I could bring some intuition and savvy to this role and yet at every corner, you know, you’re blocking me or questioning me. That is something that I would say to a supervisor, you know, “Am I needed here? My lived experience, does it mean something? Do you want what I have to contribute? Because it sounds like you have some ideas of your own about the way things happen, so I just want to make sure that I’m still a meaningful part of this team and that you really want to hear what some of the things I have to say and what I have to contribute. I think it’s okay to say that.

Steven: That makes sense. We’ve talked a lot about manager subordinate. And maybe that’s not the right word, but, you know, kind of vertical relationships. What about horizontal relationships where it’s maybe a coworker on the same level and, you know, things just aren’t, you know, clicking, personality-wise, value-wise, but maybe the work is still getting done. You know, you don’t want to have a toxic environment, certainly, but what about those coworkers? I mean, we all have that coworker that for whatever reason, we don’t sync up with and may not be really something wrong, but . . . 

Christal: Yeah. I’ve been in that role too. And, you know, and in my situation, I had a coworker who had been with the organization for a long time. And, again, I worked in a homeless shelter and she was kind of like the manager of the shelter. And we had a walk in one day. I happened to be in a lobby and we had to walk in and this person wanted to get more information about the shelter and asked, “Can they have a tour?” And so I just happened to be in a lobby and I said, “Sure, I’m happy to give you a tour.” Because I’m thinking this could be a potential donor, right? We don’t know why he is here. I’m happy to give you . . . I didn’t have anything going on at that moment, so I walked him or her around. They asked some questions, you know, answered questions and showed them around.

And I was feeling really good about it. And when the person left, the manager comes out of their front office and said, “I normally give people tours when they come here.” And I said, “Excuse me?” You know, “You didn’t even ask to check with me to make sure.” And I was like, “Oh, I’m sorry. I didn’t realize this was like a territorial thing.” You know, we’re all here trying to do the same thing, so what difference does it make? It was a walk-in. It wasn’t like he had come to see her, right? Or had made an appointment to see her, he just walked in and wanted some information. I happened to be standing there and as a fundraising person I thought, “I’m the perfect person to give you a tour and tell you about our mission and why you should support it.”

After that day she did not like me. She wasn’t feeling me. She felt threatened. And she’s not a fundraiser. She’s like the manager of the shelter, but she just felt like . . . I guess she felt like I was stepping on her toes. I don’t know what it was, but we just could not, you know, and I went to my executive director and I shared my concerns about it and he kind of just sloughed it off. It was kind of like you two have to work it out. 

So that’s a really bad place to be in. And I tried to make nice with her a couple of times and she just was not feeling me at all. And sometimes it’s not going to meld Sometimes it’s just not going to work . . . you know, that’s not going to work out, but I just kind of stayed out of her way and just tried to stay focused on what I was doing. So it’s not going to be ideal all the time. There’s going to be some conflict. I didn’t know I was stepping on her toes. I just thought I was doing a good thing by showing the guy around the shelter.

Steven: Right. We’re all humans. Some people aren’t going to click, right?

Christal: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Steven: What about for the managers in the room? You know, what are some signals they should maybe look for amongst their team members that maybe they’re feeling overwhelmed or they’re feeling frustrated that maybe they might be looking for a job. Are there some telltale signs that maybe they should keep their antennas up for?

Christal: Yeah. So that slide I had back, you know, before . . . early in the presentation about when you realize that maybe you’re in the wrong job, your supervisor’s looking at you too. What was that slide where I talked about when you know it’s time to go, when you have no real passion, you’re not really, you know, really enthusiastic about the role anymore. You don’t really want to work. You kind of don’t want to delegate. You’re really not interested in information. You’ll talk about it, but you don’t really want to do. I mean, your supervisor can pick up on those things, you know? And then, of course, there’s visible signs that the person is walking around and looking miserable, you know, or being irritable or being confrontational. That’s usually a sign that the person may or may not be happy, there’s something going on.

But, you know, this goes back to, as a supervisor, meeting with your staff outside of the office. I’m an outside of the office girl. Let’s go break bread and have, you know, a coffee, or a biscuit, or a donut somewhere and let’s just talk out of the office because people will have a tendency to relax a little bit more. We don’t have ears listening, and I really just want to have a one-on-one with you. How did things go? And you’ve been in the role now six months, do you feel like you’re getting everything you need from me as your supervisor to help you be successful? Where can I fill in? Where are there gaps? You know? What are some things that you can recommend? Are there any things that you see that we’re doing that perhaps we could be changing? You know, and so leaning in, finding out how that person is doing, finding out if they have any ideas on how things could be done better, what you could be doing better as a supervisor, I don’t think we do that enough.

Steven: Yeah. That’s good advice. Maybe one last question germane to that is, you know, we’re all working virtually most of us, maybe just communicating by chat and email. Seems like things can get misunderstood, you know, you lose the body language and you can read a chat and maybe think they’re angry, they may not be, or vice versa. How can you maybe get over that? Is it a matter of more phone calls, more Zoom meetings, less chats, or sarcasm fonts, using something like that? What do you think?

Christal: Sarcastic emojis or whatever. I’m an eyeball to eyeball person. I like, you know, because sometimes, like you said, email or text messages or chats can be misconstrued and you might mean it one way, but it sounds another way. And I think either meeting in person or meeting via Zoom where you can actually see the person I think is really important so that the person can see, you know, I want to see you. I’m not going to be a coward and hide behind text messages or hide behind an email. I want to talk to you face to face about whatever whatever’s going on. And, you know, being a mediator, I’ve been a mediator before, and that’s a tough position to be in when you have two who people feel very strongly about their particular side of things.

But yeah, no, I just think it’s important for us to . . . The takeaway for this whole thing is really know who you are, really know what your values are, what makes you feel good about going to work every day, and then finding a place that aligns with that. There is a place that aligns with that. Let’s start there. You just got to find it. And everything is not going to be perfect. There’s some things you’re going to have to compromise on. You know how much you’re willing to tolerate. 

But as a fundraiser, this is a hard job. You need support, you need encouragement. I mean, particularly now, it can be really lonely and fundraising with all this happening with the pandemic. You need support. You need a supervisor who will check in to say, “Hey, how’s it going? You need a day off? How are you feeling? How’s it going with that last donor we talked about last week? Were you able to get closer to making the ask?” You know, someone’s showing interest, you know, giving you some encouragement, giving you some support. You want to be in an environment like that, if that’s what your value is. It is for me. But you have to know what it is for you. And know that if you need to make a change and find a new job, you can control the narrative. Find the company that works for you. Find a supervisor that works for you. 

Steven: We got people in the chat saying they want to work for you, Christal. They want you to be their . . . I want you to meet my boss too, so sign me up. You’d be a good boss. I know it. Speaking of, where can people find out about you? You got some contact info? I want people stay in touch.

Christal: Yeah. Yes. On this last slide here. So, again, my website is theboardpro.com. You can email me at [email protected] if you have any questions about your board or how they could be more engaged or how they can become more diverse. I mean, that’s a lot of what’s . . . conversations going on with boards right now, how they can be more inclusive. How can we change the composition of our board? Send me an email. I’m happy to, you know, to chat with you and give you a free 10 to 15-minute consultation about whatever your question is.

Steven: Reach out to her. She’s always putting good stuff. I found out about The Mom Project from, I think, a LinkedIn post that you put out, Christal. 

Christal: Yeah, I love that [inaudible 01:01:23].

Steven: So, yeah, you definitely want to follow her. Just an awesome person, And I’m getting a lot of good chats in here. Toastmasters. You don’t need . . . you should be teaching Toastmasters. I was surprised to hear that. This has been great. Well, this is always fun to have you, Christal. We’ll definitely have you back as always. But thanks for doing this. I really appreciate all the wisdom.

Christal: Thank you, guys. I appreciate it. You guys have a purple day.

Steven: Yeah. Have a purple day. Christal, you should go buy those shoes. You should treat yourself to that. I mean . . . 

Christal: I’m going to get those shoes, Steven. I’m going to wear them to my next webinar. Thanks, Steven.

Steven: I love it. Yeah. Our next conference, you can really do it. Thanks to all of you for hanging out. We got a good webinar coming up. Probably going to have one next week, but I want to call attention to the one two weeks from now about having a strong back office if you maybe struggle with a financial, HR, legal. Kind of that boring stuff, maybe not boring to them. I think it’s exciting to them and can be exciting to everybody, but if that’s something you struggle with. Same time, same place 3:00 p.m. Eastern, my buddy, Sean Hale, super smart is going to talk about all those things. 

But like I said, we’re going to get you the recording and the slides to this session here later on today. So just be on the lookout for an email from me and hopefully we’ll see you again on another Bloomerang webinar. So thanks for being here, and stay healthy out there and take care of yourself. You only live once, right? So find the job that really gets you out of bed in the morning. We will see you again next week, hopefully. Have a good rest of your Thursday and a good weekend. We’ll talk to you again soon.

Christal: Bye, everybody. Take care. Steven, that was awesome.

Steven: Bye.

Christal: Bye.