Marc Pitman will outline a three-grouping framework that helps explain some of the seemingly illogical way others react; and how you can use that knowledge to reduce stress in your own life.
Steven: All right. I got 2:00 Eastern, you okay if I go ahead and get things started, Marc?
Steven: Okay, we’re done.
Marc: I’m just kidding.
Steven: Well, thanks, everybody.
Marc: I change my mind. Of course.
Steven: Nobody’s ever said that to me even though I do the same dorky intro every time. Congratulations.
Marc: Sweet, thank you.
Steven: It took eight years of webinars but we’re finally here. Hello, everyone. Welcome, thanks for being here. Good afternoon, good morning if you’re on the West Coast, if you’re watching recording, no matter what time it is I hope you’re having a good day. We’re here to talk about how to keep it cool when maybe people are annoying you a little bit. Perhaps you’ve been feeling that in these difficult times. We got somebody here to talk about those things. I’m super excited, this is going to be a fun one. I’m Steven, I’m over here at Bloomerang, and I’ll be moderating today’s discussion, as always.
And just a couple of quick housekeeping items, I just want to let everyone know that we are recording and I’ll be sending out the recording later on today as well as the slides. So, if you have to leave early, don’t worry, we’ll get all the good stuff in your hands. If you get interrupted, don’t worry, you’ll be able to rewind it and relive all the wonderful moments you’ll get from Marc, you know, the next hour or so.
Most importantly, please feel free to chat in any questions or comments along the way. We’re going to try to save some time at the end for Q&A, so don’t be shy. I know a lot of people already chatted in, keep doing that, we love to hear from you. You can also tweet us, I’ll keep an eye on those things. There’s a chat box and a Q&A box, you can use either of those. I’ll see them, don’t worry, I won’t ignore you but we’d love to hear from you. We love for this to be interactive.
If this is your first Bloomerang webinar, I just want to say an extra special welcome to all you folks. We do these webinars at least every Thursday, although this is the third webinar of the week, this is capping off a great week of presentations we’ve been providing.
We love doing these webinars. If you’ve never heard of Bloomerang, just for context we’re a donor database provider. So, if you’re interested in that, if you need new donor management software or if you don’t have any and you think you might need some, check us out. You can find us on the web. You can watch all kinds of videos and more about Bloomerang, we’re pretty easy to find so check that out if you’re interested. Don’t do it right now, at least wait an hour because my buddy, Marc, is here. A friend of the program, Marc Pitman joining us. How you doing, Marc? Are you doing okay?
Marc: A long time listener, first time caller, Steven.
Steven: You’re like a seven-time caller, I think.
Marc: I know.
Steven: This is like you’re one of the OGs of the Bloomerang webinar series. I remember back in 2013 were like, “Hey, we want to start a webinar series,” and we somehow convinced you. You were gracious enough to help us out.
Marc: It’s so hard for me to consider talking to people. It’s just one of those things I find it hard to do.
Steven: Right. You don’t do that at all.
Marc: You’ll let me talk to people?
Steven: Sure. He loves it.
Marc: Count me in.
Steven: If you guys don’t know Marc, check him out, Concord Leadership Group. He’s just a great guy. I mean what can I say, he’s all over the place. He’s speaking at conferences, he runs his own conferences, helping out fundraisers all over the place, and he’s a coach. He’s particularly good at motivating folks, not just to ask for money but in all areas of their work. And he’s been an inspiring figure in my life. I’ve enjoyed getting to know him and late nights after conferences, perhaps over some drinks taking on heady subjects, we can talk more about the . . .
Marc: Like the Red Sox, yeah.
Steven: You’re going to get some of that knowledge over the next hour or so. And I don’t want to take any more time so I’m going to stop sharing my screen, Marc.
Steven: And I think you got it covered from there. So the floor is yours, my friend.
Marc: My new book, “The Surprising Gift of Doubt,” is coming out in March and some of this is going to be parts of what you’re going to get.
Steven: Yes. It’s a little book preview, right?
Marc: Kind of, yeah, this is really fun. But is it all right if we just keep going?
Steven: Do it, go for it.
Marc: All right, cool. I’m so thrilled to be here, everyone. This is a really, I just love this topic and I love helping people kind of sort through what’s going on in the world? Why are people acting so dumb? Because it’s not us, of course, that are acting dumb, it’s other people. So, Steven, do we have it so that it’s just my screen?
Steven: Yeah. Looks like it’s working okay.
Marc: It doesn’t to me so, oh, if it’s a speaker view, maybe that’s it.
Steven: It could be.
Marc: Well, I’ll just share screen.
Marc: Instead of doing this fancy thing. Okay, cool. I’m going to just go back to this and then share screen. Boom. We are good to go. All right.
Steven: There it goes. Cool.
Marc: So the people are often so weird and when COVID-19 hit, people got even more stressed out and they started acting in ways that just didn’t make sense to any of the rest of us. Of course, what we are doing is totally logical but wouldn’t it be great to have like some sort of 3D set of glasses so we could kind of see what, why are people acting differently because they don’t seem to . . . they seem to be doing stuff that makes sense to them but it doesn’t make any sense to us. Maybe a decoder ring would be better like we used to get in a cereal boxes so we could try to figure out, “Okay, this is what they’re giving me and if I put in these coordinates or these letters, then I can actually understand what they’re saying. Fortunately, there is this psychoanalyst in Germany, Karen Horney, who created a . . . she was observing the world and she was noticing that people tend to have 10 different instinctual stances.
And you can look on Wikipedia or in her books, there are some links in the books in the end, but the 10 stances as she was working with them she realized this actually clump into three different stances. There’s the expressive or the aggressive stance, the compliant or dependent stance, and the detachment or withdrawing stance.
I’ve learned these from Suzanne Stabile, she calls them stances. Karen Horney called them needs or instinctual needs. What I love about it is this became like the decoder ring for me. This became a very helpful way of looking at the world and looking at the relationships around me and the people that I work with, and trying to figure out why are they doing things that are so seemingly dumb? I know this recorded, so I have to put the seemingly in there but you all know what I’m talking about when you’re in work areas.
The expansive, aggressive folks are always moving towards people. They don’t . . . it’s not even that they’re deciding, these are instinctual so it’s before you’re thinking about it. This is just their way of orienting to the world. They have a need for power and they sort of just can’t imagine not moving forward. They don’t . . . you can read the text on the screen, many of you. If not, the PDF will have it, too. But they just seem to think that the future is not written yet so why don’t we act on it? People are around them to help them figure out the future, that’s kind of their orientation to people.
And with the aggressive stance, there’s a need for social recognition on some level, whether it’s different letters after their name or, you know, prominence in an organization. There tends to be some being out front, it involves also having being seen, at least being known. So that and they’re the ones that are total personal achievers, so that is one stance.
And so some of them, they’re probably driving many other people on this call, know people like this, and this people drive them nuts because that’s not all there is to life. Go, go, go, go, go, go, hustle, hustle, hustle, hustle isn’t the only thing that there is in life. If that’s you is feeling that, you might be in the what Karen Horney called the compliance stance. We call dependent now with some of the work I’ve been doing with Suzanne, in the vein of Suzanne Stabile and others, that the dependent folks move towards people. So their first instinctual thing is to think about who’s around us? They do it for need for, they want to have approval but not in the social admiration way, but just kind of in the being liked is important to them. There tends to be just a natural before it even [inaudible 00:07:57] ability to just self-face and not really think too much of themselves. They’re partly motivated out of not wanting to be abandoned. They really want to be connected with people.
And they think that there are, when there are demands they tend to not want to have them placed on themselves. They tend to be like look into the woodwork or kind of blend in with others. They’re really hoping somebody else will fix life’s problems and this is Karen Horney’s descriptions but I find it helpful to look at sort of who, what were the original source, and then I’ll rehash these in a little bit less pejorative way going forward.
The third stance is the detachment or withdrawing stance, these are the people that are moving away from people. So you have people that are moving against people, the aggressives, people that are moving toward people, the dependents, and people that are moving away from people, they’re withdrawing. They, instinctually, before they think about it or whatever, their first stance is almost to take a step back.
And they have this real need not only for solitude and independence but they have a real need to do things correctly. And it’s not just doing it correctly, it’s just that if it’s not worth trying if it’s going to . . . if anything is flawed, it’s more a failure on their part. They have a disregard for others but there’s no resentment or animosity of it, it’s just they don’t . . . it’s not something that’s important to them. And they have a tendency to really not be in touch with their feelings around them. They feel that everything that they do has to be so refined that it will be unquestioningly good or it would just be obvious. And so they take the time back to go back to refine and continue refining.
We call these three the aggressive, the dependent, and the withdrawn, and you probably recognize some of these in your interactions with people. Pre-pandemic, during pandemic, now as we’re going back into school and stuff at the time of this recording, I’m trying to figure out why aren’t people making decisions and other people are trying to figure out why are they always making decisions? Why aren’t they taking a step back and amassing knowledge? And the dependents were thinking about like, “Why isn’t anybody looking around to see how these decisions could impact the rest of us?”
To review these because I want you to really get this and I think that the three, it was good to look at Karen Horney’s original stuff but the three stances independently will help you, be most helpful as those 3D glasses for you. Aggressive, fast-paced, future-focused, social recognition. Their instinct when things happen, when crises hits is to get out there and change the future, because the future hasn’t been written so it can be impactive. It never comes into their mind that they can’t change the future.
The dependent would be the ones that are more present-focused, instead of future-focused. They’re aware of others in the fact that decisions we make now affect other people around us and we should actually check in with that, which is a strength on teams. Aggressives may not understand that as a strength but it is a strength on teams. And they want to know the kind of systemic fix to a problem, not just taking action for taking action sake. Aggressives could be really happy because they’re just taking action. They’re checking things off their list even if it’s not the right list to be checking off of.
And then the withdrawn are more past-focused in a sense of they’re aware of the past. They really want to do things to minimize personal impact and they have a different need for their own space. So some of you have bosses who are, or board members, board chairs who are withdrawing stance. They can be the best bosses in the world but when urgency strikes or Black Lives Matter protests come up and there’s this real need for, “We need to express the equity that our organization already stands for,” you didn’t have the urgency or sense the urgency in those leaders that you are expecting.
And that could be just because those leaders were thinking about protecting their space and trying to refine the statement so it was perfect, or their leaders were more dependent and they wanted to look out around them and just see . . . are we boarding this correctly? We haven’t, you know, what is the right way? What are other organizations doing? When you might have been that aggressive stance of just, “Let’s just get something up there. Let’s stand for what we believe in.”
The instinct of the aggressives, I’d love to see in the chat if I can see the chat. I think I can open the chat here somewhere. Steven, you can see the chat. Yeah, here we go, chat. I’d love to see who thinks they’re aggressive. How many people here think they’re aggressive? Just put a Y in the chat. All right, there’s a bunch of you guys, okay. I get that, that’s totally my thing.
How about dependent? How many people think they’re dependent? The instinct to be more toward, you put maybe a Y or a D. Yeah, somebody put a D. Way to go. It’s going too fast, I can’t see. And then for, how about, put a W for the people that think that they’re probably more withdrawn. I see that Emily, yeah, nice. If it’s possibly two, yeah. I’ve heard that it . . . I don’t know if it’s possible to be two or to have them stacked. Sometimes in these frameworks it can be that there’s a more forward thinking part that you are and then there’s a stack or a blend between them.
What I love about that question, I wish I . . . ugh, you guys are so great. This is a really interactive group. Amanda, what I think was good about knowing them is that once you know that there are options, it’s like taking off the glasses where I was like, “Oh, not everybody sees the world this way, like through these glasses. Maybe there’s a different way I can operate here.” So it goes beyond just why are you bugging me? You’re always out there or you’re always pulling back, or you’re always checking in with other people, whatever the one that’s bugging you is. You can also think, “What’s my natural reaction?” You could ask some trusted people that aren’t out to get you just, you know, share with them that.
And then you could think about expand that space between you, if something happens to you and you respond to it, just kind of live in that space even if it’s a couple of seconds and think, “What’s the right role here? Should I be going in to fix it or should I be just checking in with the person in front of me? Or maybe I need to take a step back and let them figure this out for themselves?”
I think that’s one of the very powerful, dependent, withdrawn people are always getting in my way. And so check the chat if you want to see some of the comments in the ways you’re bugging other people or other people are being bugged. That’s awesome. I need not condone it nor condemn that remark because we all frustrate each other.
Now, I promise in my pre-work to or my promotion this morning, I love the way these three stances in themselves they’re helpful to know and we could spend a lot of time with question and answers, how do we interact with that which we definitely feel free to. And, Steven, if you see questions definitely interrupt whenever you feel you want to. What I also like there’s this tool out there called the Enneagram which I’ve been around and exposed to for a long time, but I’ve only started using it in my professional work for the last, with others in the last couple or a few years.
Some of you saw me at the Nonprofit Storytelling Conference when I shared this a few years back. What I love about these three stances is that there’s nine typology, the Enneagram means symbol of nine, gram, any writing of nine or drawing of nine. It also seems to overlay well with the aggressive, dependent, and withdrawn stance. Let me tell you what I mean. There are nine types in the Enneagram, it’s incredibly dynamic with arrows and all sorts of different layers, but one of the layers that is about this is overlaying the three different stances Karen Horney brought out. Now, if you’re familiar with certain teaching with the Enneagram, there’s peacemaker . . . they have labels, protector, peacemaker, perfectionist, caretaker, achiever, tragic romantic, investigator, loyalist, enthusiast. Those are the ones that I put on the slides but I will always refer to the number one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine because those don’t have emotional connections to them.
I know some twos, they are not caretakers, they’re helpers but they’re not caretakers. And I know some fours that are not tragic romantics. They’re authentic people. And as, you know, I know some sevens that prefer not to be seen as enthusiast but epicures. So there’s all different ways that we can accurately label these but the numbers stand for themselves. So you’ll hear me use those numbers a little bit more as we go through the rest of this talk, this next few minutes and through the question and answers. I cannot see responses except for the panelists. Okay. I’m sure Steven’s on that, so good. I’ll let Steven do tech and I’ll keep doing teaching.
Those that are aggressive in the Enneagram language are achievers or, well, three sevens and eights. And the reason that this is kind of nice to know is that within the aggressives, it’s not just like a cohesive block of go-getting people, there are different reasons within it. Threes, they want to be more about success and seen as success. They are very good at going into a group and just being able to express, just know what that group kind of values, what they see success as. And so then to embody that and they do that to help the group move forward and failure to them is seen as a really bad thing so they don’t want to be in, that’s something that they’re trying to avoid is they want to be appreciated because of they’re a success. And so failure would be against that so that’s the way they see the world. They don’t want to talk about their failures.
Sevens, on the other hand, totally aggressives but they’re not failure. They’ll talk about it the minute after it happened. “Oh, man, I just messed up here and you could learn from this, too.” Sevens are people that are, feel that to successfully be in the world they have to be up. They have to always be positive and energetic. And the minute things seemed normal, let alone pandemic, lock home, you know, stay-at-home stuff, they start getting worried because they feel like they might fall off this cliff, that normal will be too sad which will be to this gaping void of just nothing. And so sevens feel like they have to shine, you know, they keep looking for the shiny, new object. They keep looking for the next tool, the next excitement.
I was joking with somebody earlier today that I plan my whole life as a speaker and a coach, as a seven, around the new because I’d be flying to a new place. We’re talking to a new client or doing a new project, and now that’s been shrunk quite a bit because this right here is my stage for the next couple of years.
Then, eight, they are a different type of aggressives also. Eights have this incredible, like you could feel their presence when they walk in the room often. Their power is something that eights is just a commodity they deal in, they don’t even realize it. They will vigorously be talking to you and you’ll feel like they’re arguing with you. And they don’t even realize that they’re coming across as confrontational or intimidating. Their game is to control spaces so that they won’t be bullied and the people around them won’t be bullied. So mature eights, healthy eights can be wonderful leaders because if you’re in their inner circle, they’re going to do everything they can to keep all the other stuff of life at bay. They’re going to try to protect them.
So those are three different ways of looking at aggressives. Some aggressives are looking to be, look successful, so if you’re trying to talk to their dialect, it might be helpful to show how taking a step back might be more successful than actually pressing forward if that’s a perspective you want to give. Others are looking for new experiences and so you could probably maybe see how there’s something new or something exciting or different about it because differences are good for sevens. And then for eights, it could be this will protect us as we look at this fundraising objective, this will protect us. As we’re talking to a donor, you might be able to say, “By investing in this matching program now, this will protect you, this will protect our organization so that we can continue serving our mission as we go through the rest of this pandemic.”
If you’re dealing with people that are the more dependent stance, those are usually the ones, twos, and sixes in Enneagram speak. Ones have this amazing ability to know that there is objective truth out there. They know that there is a moral right or wrong and their whole orientation is they’re not meeting it. Just recent, I just had an interaction with somebody online who often puts out negative in their comments. The way I read it is negative, it’s always how something fall short of perfection. But that person could be a one, where they just want to . . . they think they’re loving on somebody by helping them see, “This is where you’re falling short. It’s not so much you’re falling short but you can do better. This is where you can improve.” Because they naturally think everybody else wants to improve, too. So their way of being dependent is maybe it looks like micromanaging. It could be saying their way of looking at other people might not be so much the obvious help for the rest of us but it could be, “Hey, that grammar is wrong or that process is wrong,” or they could be pointing out things that are bad or falling short.
Just know that ones have these, we all have an inner critic. Ones have it on steroids. That some people talk they’d say that they have an inner choir . . . of critics, because they’re living in such condemnation so consistently, it’s really harsh for them. So that might help us build if we see some of the dependent folks and maybe they are one, they might help us have a little more compassion. And ones, one of the big things for ones is to know good enough sometimes is enough. Excellence isn’t always required to get in all situations. Sometimes just done is better than not done.
Twos want to help because they want to be liked and they’re really good. They’re looking to other people. They have this amazing ability to be able to help people because they kind of know what people need before those people even know it. What they don’t realize until they’ve done some work and just kind of get in touch with themselves is that they’re often is a quid pro quo that comes with that. That they’re helping because they want to be helped in return.
Now, the problem with that is sort of like fundraisers who just expect donors to know that we need money. Twos don’t necessarily ask for help because they can see what other people need for help, so why isn’t everybody else seeing that? Well, it’s because their superpower is being able to see the need. And so a part of where their growth is, is learning to be able to expand their ability to ask for that. But if you’re dealing with someone in the dependent stance who seems to be looking around, their helpfulness may be a clue to you that they may be looking to, they may be someone that actually you can kind of deputize to say, “Could you go talk to people and see how this is going to affect them?” Because the twos will know, have this ability to read where people are at in a different way.
Sixes, on the other hand, are more dependent stance, too, but they are amazing at being able to see everything that can go wrong. So they’re in the same . . . they’re in a similar mode of sevens where sevens are trying to move forward. Sixes are not trying to avoid pain by moving forward but they’re trying to avoid pain by planning for every contingency. This often for the rest of us can look like a lot of questions. Especially when we feel like we finally get that right fundraising proposal and then the donor asks us another set of questions which, to us, seems like a whole policy statement.
And so, if you’re always asking questions, one of the things you might want to be aware of and you think you might be a six is that sometimes you’re asking for questions which seems perfectly legitimate for you. You’re reaching out to other people. You’re trying to figure out how do we protect ourselves. That could come across like you’re questioning our integrity, so just be careful with that. People don’t always understand that you’re motivated out of a deep passion.
The great things about sixes is once they’re kind of stress-testing people in systems to make sure they’re trustworthy. Once they deem that they’re trustworthy, boom, they’re all in. They’re 100% committed and incredibly well. And so this can be some of your best supporters, they can be some of your best colleagues and bosses, too, because once they’re behind you it’s very hard to shake them from that.
And then with the withdrawing as we look Enneagram, I’m thinking about this. The fours, fives, and nines tend to be in the withdrawing stance. Fours have this deep-seated need and ability to express themselves authentically. They want to be known and they can’t stand inauthenticity. When something smacks of less than anything authentic, it really irks them. So, when you’re looking at the people that are withdrawing, they’re taking a step back, it maybe because they don’t see an authentic reason for why everybody else is moving forward.
Now, let me just say this now, none of these personality types or stances are excuses for not doing your job. There comes a point where just work environments are artificial environments. So sometimes you just have to do the work, you just have to do what’s in front of you or what your boss is asking you for. And if it crosses an ethical line for you, then you need to find someplace else to do it. Having said that, fours bring a tremendous gift of really making sure that what we do is truly to mission and unique. They can also have, one of the other things many fours are good at this artistic flair and ability to give an aesthetic to our work. And the rest of us wouldn’t see we needed it until it’s shown to us and we realize, “Wow, that makes this a lot, lot better.”
In this withdrawing stance, another type of withdrawing stance is a five. Fives are probably the classic withdrawing stance in the fact that fives in Enneagram speak need space. They love to be in rooms without windows. The way that Suzanne Stabile and some others teach Enneagram is that fives wake up in the morning knowing that they have a certain amount of energy in any unpredicted meeting, schedule, surprise debits that energy from the account. They’re hoping to have enough energy to get through the day so they can recharge and sleep, and come back the next morning. And so, if you have a boss that’s a five, that’s withdrawing, so they pull back and you’re constantly being on their door. You’re saying, “Hey, we got to get this news, you know?” If you’re waiting for them to approve your newsletter or your fundraising appeal, it can be really frustrating because they don’t sense the urgency. Their focus is on getting it right.
And so what they want to do, fives have this amazing ability to amass knowledge. They could consume vast quantities of knowledge. And in consuming, sometimes they can forget that they haven’t done anything yet. So the doing is necessary, too, but if you’re . . . One of the things to think about is if you’re being led by a five, you’ve got somebody who is very gifted at quantifying knowledge and that’s really needed.
And then the last part in this is the nines. These are the top of the Enneagram. They are the people that are the most able to see everybody’s perspective. They have a deep need for harmony and for a lack of strife and a lack of conflict, and so that takes a ton of energy to do. You may not see this but this is incredibly tiring for nines, and so they lose a sense of what their own desires are.
So, if you ask a nine on what they want to do, they may not know. So you suggest . . . an example I hear commonly is so, you know, if you ask a nine, “Where do you want to go for dinner?” “I don’t know.” So you suggest, “Let’s go to the Chinese restaurant.” “Oh, no, I don’t want to do that.” So nines can often could be very clear on what they don’t want to do even though they aren’t necessarily clear on what they want. And so, for a nine, if you’re a nine you get a process of before you’re going out what you do want, you could be looking at all of the things you don’t want and seeing what’s left. But if you have a boss that’s a nine that’s withdrawing, nines are often called the nicest people in the world because you can talk with your boss and you’ll get the sense that they totally see your perspective and invariably they do.
It doesn’t mean they agree with you but they have enough space in their being to be able to entertain a bunch of different perspectives and viewpoints it wants. There are numbers of nines that come out of board meetings or donor meetings where feeling like even though different opinions were expressed, everybody in the room feels like the nine understood them and agreed with them. So nines you need to be careful because you’re nodding and your appreciation or ability to see that could be taken as agreement and so we need to be clear about that, too.
So, hopefully, I mean this is really powerful stuff. I’d love to talk about real donor experiences, real board experiences, real boss experiences. I won’t read names so that, you know, while we’re recording this. I’ve read names earlier but as Steven and I go through the question and answer part, we’ll try to keep some sense of distance between it.
But when you think about the Enneagram, there’s a lot of depth in this, there’s a lot of different ways you can go. You can also just keep it simple and think about aggressive, dependent, and withdrawing. And think about why is that donor not responding to me? Maybe they’re more of a withdrawing type. One of the things that Suzanne Stabile talks about when she talks about nines and their sense of withdrawing is nines will see what needs to be done but it never occurs to them that its theirs to do. Whereas, an aggressive stance, it’s three, seven, or eight will do it. “Of course, it has to get done and it’s mine to do.” Even dependent stances would see that something needs to get done and it’s theirs to do. Nines would just see, “Oh, that needs to get done.” And there’s not any awareness until they’ve done other work or change in different ways. No natural awareness that needs to get done.
Sharing that in the Nonprofit Storytelling Conference, I had a person come up to me afterwards and say, “That saved my marriage, you just saved my marriage.” After a few decades with this guy, I realized he’s not necessarily being an intentional jerk. He’s just not seeing that, yeah, that’s on the floor and that needs to get picked up but he’s now has made the connection that he needs to do the picking up, too. It wasn’t just a slam against her which is cool. All right. Steven shouting out to all his fellow fives.
Hey, Steven, why don’t we come back, would that be good? Just so you have a preview on the slides. You’ll get all these different, a whole bunch of different resources that I have found to be helpful. I’d love to hear ones that you find to be helpful, too, if you wanted to reach out to me.
And if you have trouble with focus, even more there’s a free gift here, concordleadershipgroup.com/daily-focus will help you to. There’s just a very simple template that I use for my days that have helped me know that I’ve successfully finished the day even with all the different demands that come in. As a seven, I love all the different things but I also like focus. I like to have something I know I’ve done. So what are we seeing in the chat box? There was a little bit too many things going on at once.
Steven: Yeah. There are a lot of people kind of identifying as their type. I have never seen those three groups before but as soon as you started describing the withdrawn, I was like, “Oh, that’s me.” And then when you paired it up with the fives, I was like, “Oh, man, he got me because I’m a withdrawn five, exactly.”
Marc: That’s cool. That’s really cool that you can see it so much, yeah.
Steven: Do you recommend people take the test and kind of get the number and then sort of . . . is there a test for the first three groups or . . . ?
Marc: Well, see, that’s the thing, isn’t it? I don’t know if there is for the first three and many of the people I listen to say there isn’t any for the Enneagram either. So the Enneagram is more of a wisdom tradition thing so it’s something you live out, you read the stories and see which ones fit with you. But there is a test I’ve used RHETI, the Enneagram . . . A lot of the test . . . The reason I cringe is nothing personal but a lot of the tests out there are sort of like which Disney princess are you? So it’s not really, there’s not the statistical verification and it’s hard to in wisdom literature.
So all of that saying, I’ve liked RHETI, R-H-E-T-I, the Enneagram Institute’s test, and I’ve used that with some of my coaching, one-on-one coaching clients in the institution once. And there’s also one I tested once or twice with the coaching clients from a long time, early Enneagram practitioner, Jerry Wagner, so Wagner Enneagram Personality System or something. It’s, apparently, the only one that is verified by a psychiatric association so that was kind of cool.
Steven: That’s great.
Marc: Yeah. And then the iEQ9 is one I just heard. I’ve heard about it from some personalities but Beatrice Chestnut who I really trust in the Enneagram community said that so far that’s the best. There’s just some sections she’s not pleased with but that’s, because that gets into subtypes which is a whole another area of Enneagram stuff. But I’m geeking out and monologing, sorry.
Steven: No, that’s great. I think we want to hear those stuff because I think people are sensing that there are a lot of those tests out there and that maybe some of them aren’t as good as others so, yeah.
Marc: I guess what I would say is have fun exploring, I mean that’s the thing. It’s be wary of anybody that says, “Oh, you’re this type. I know you, you’re this type.” Because whereas, the way I teach it is that there are abilities that you have, things that you can just do quickly. Those are like Highlands Ability Battery tests that. I’ve heard [Kolbe 00:33:52] tests that. Then there are behaviors, like I’m a people person and I am, you know, people person extrovert, you know, extrovert and toward people task, those are things you can see. I can look at people and generally see, yeah, they are probably extroverted, they’re probably more introverted. But Enneagram is the inside, it’s the inner motivation. It’s how you see success in the world. And so that’s where I like the aggressive, dependent, withdrawn because you can see that. But if you start labeling people with numbers, that’s not really respecting Enneagram and it’s not really respecting the person around you.
Steven: Yeah. Well, speaking of, you know, I’ve been thinking as I was listening the last half hour, you know, at Bloomerang for example, the senior leadership team took these tests and we said, “Okay, this is what we all are.” And there’s a really good kind of team building.
Marc: They took the Enneagram.
Marc: Awesome. Great.
Steven: We took another one, it was another where the labels were, like, defender and I can’t remember the name of that one but it was, like, another one like these. And it was a great exercise and then what we all did is we went to our departments and encouraged our teams to take them. And then the smaller teams we had a great discussion, too. It’s a great experience.
Marc: That’s super because if it’s a part of why I love these types of things including Enneagram is that it can give people a common language. In Enneagram, even though it’s talking about really personal things, it gives a more objective language for it, and non-judgmental language for differences. So I love that. I love that use of it that you guys did. That’s smart.
Steven: So my question though is you say we listen to this webinar and maybe you’re not the boss but you want everyone to take the test, how do you kind of do that from the bottom up, right? It’s easy if it comes from the top down leadership, you know, if it’s an organization that sees the value. What advice would you have if you’re listening to this like, “Geez, everyone in the organization needs to take this test. How would I suggest that?” Is that something they should suggest to begin with?
Marc: Yeah. Well, again, and this is why, I mean I can see on the one hand and then on the other hand. On the one hand, if you’re the one pushing for something, it can be really off putting for everybody else because that zeal doesn’t come up a lot in our work and so that can be really weird. But what I would say is really get to know it yourself first. And so I know when I was introduced to it in the late ’80s, I just read some books and then I let it sit for a few years and then I read some more books. There’s a prompt that Enneagram Institute would put out every day, an email about your type reminding you mostly about the pitfalls of your type but sometimes about the good parts of your type. And as you learn it more and you start becoming more aware of who you are, because the goal isn’t to be the best type you can be, it’s to transcend the type.
The way the Enneagram works is that all nine types are needed and it’s part of, just like the dependent, withdrawn, and aggressive, we need all of those types in our teams. So the more in touch and aware you become of yourself, the more you can transcend that and people will start wondering, “Why are you acting differently?” They won’t necessarily be pleased with that because some people had already learned that they can manipulate you or just depend on you to do things.
Like if one of the things that some people warn is if you’re, and twos listen to this, one of the word like, “I need.” If somebody comes to you and said, “I really need this,” that can be almost Pavlovian for two to want to get it done for them. So there is a dark side to learning this stuff but I would say if you’re middle in the organization or low on the totem pole, learning it can be really good and maybe sharing it with a friend. And if you find a test that you like, I know there are a lot of memes out there and that can be a way maybe for people to get into it as long as it’s not, “I’m the best seven in the world.” Because the point, just remember, I mean it’s fine to play with that. I love books like, I think I’ve got . . . yeah, you can see them.
Steven: I can see the top to them.
Marc: Yeah. I have this whole camera thing, yeah. Anyway, over here there are the “Nine Types of Leadership” would probably be a great one for organizations. It’s Beatrice Chestnut’s. Let me see if I can do this without pulling aside the computer. Right here and now out of the oven we have “9 Types of Leadership” by Beatrice Chestnut is one that was done in hospital organizations and tech firms. So there’s Enneagram can feel really woohoo and she does a good job of making it so that it’s open to others. So I think that would probably be a good place to start but I love “The Road Back to You,” Suzanne Stabile with Ian Cron. And then Suzanne Stabile’s “The Path Between Us” also are two good books. There are a lot of videos, too.
Steven: Yeah. Like if you educate yourself, you shouldn’t go around saying, “Oh, you’re a four, that’s why you’re acting this way.”
Marc: It’s so much fun though because like, so I was talking to somebody and she may be on here but she said that she was talking with the therapist and she said, “I don’t know if you’ve heard the Enneagram.” And the therapist said, “Oh, I know all about studies and research and science, and I’m very much about that, but the Enneagram gets me.” And so, when you finally feel seen, it’s so liberating and exciting. And so, if you gush over people that’s just normal, that’s fine.
Steven: Good. All right. Well, I monopolized my own questions. So we got some good questions in here and like I said . . .
Marc: We got a great group. This is fun.
Steven: Oh, yeah, the Bloomerang crowd, I’m telling you they’re awesome.
Marc: I shouldn’t be surprised.
Steven: And I’ll keep it anonymous, folks, even if you didn’t ask anonymously.
Marc: Yeah, thanks for honoring that.
Steven: But you said something earlier, Marc, that might have prompted this question which is you can’t just not do your job because of whatever number of thing you are. And the person here is asking, you know, can people actually use these, their label, their type as an excuse for certain behaviors, activities? What’s your opinion on that? It seems like it shouldn’t be always be something that you fall back on as an excuse but there are legit things that explain behavior at the same time, right?
Marc: There are. I want to be an adult about this because I can’t stand people making excuses based on personality for why they can’t do something. So, if it’s done as a reflective excuse, this is hard and so maybe I can verbally process this. But organizations have roles that need to be done. And as an adult, you’ve applied for that role and been hired to do a role. Now, the roles aren’t always correct and so there needs to be some latitude in fixing them. A lot of fundraisers are on this call and the fundraising is seen as one thing by some people but it’s really something else. A great example is, typical nonprofit fundraising is let’s talk about our organization in our fundraising letters. Our organization is great, we do great work. Our staff is great, we’re well certified. We have great outcomes, we’re super, will you please give us money.
That’s bad fundraising. That fundraising is, I mean good fundraising is talking to the donor and doing it in a way that would never get a good grade in a high school English course. So there needs to be latitude in the job descriptions but I would never . . . My fear in any of these assessments is that they’re used to pigeonhole people, that leaders or staff would pigeonhole people as, “You’re just a, you’re just this,” label. But I can’t even understand why people would want to even do that to themselves. Why would you limit yourself to, “Nah, I can’t do this because I’m a five”? Well, then, you know, yeah. I have very big, big tolerance issues with people that use excuses like that. I’m sure there’s nuances but everybody can grow out of this.
I mean some of the best five, some of the best leaders are fives who don’t want to be around people a lot of the day. They want a lot of structure but they grow out of it and they are that frontward face. They just know that they have to, like [inaudible 00:41:41] founder knew that as an introvert and we did introvert-extrovert, he knew he had to flex to be an extrovert and talk in front of a crowd. He also knew that he needed three days of back up afterwards, like hanging out by himself to be able to recharge when the rest of his fundraising crew is all like, “Let’s do it again, that was fun. Let’s have another party.”
So I think it’s more know your reserves. Look for ways that you can do things, just like you would in anything else. If you know you take, if you know you’re normally three months late in doing annual performance reviews, start them three months before they’re due and get them done so that, you know, you learn hacks to kind of accommodate as you learn to grow and adapt. That’s what I would submit. That was verbose, sorry. It’s a great question. It’s a really great question though.
Steven: Keep using five as an example, Marc, like I’m not right here in front of you. It’s hurting my feelings a little. I’m just kidding.
Marc: Well, then there’s those fives. Yeah, I know I figured it was safe because you are.
Steven: Yeah, I appreciate it. I got some people asking about donors. It seems like, you know, and I should say, you know, asking in person is something that you coach a lot of people on.
Marc: [inaudible 00:42:51].
Steven: And it seems like you would really want to be attuned to these personality types, maybe in like a major gift setting where you are doing a face-to-face ask or one-on-one. In your experience, are most of those larger donors, maybe more on the more aggressive side? And if so, no?
Marc: I haven’t found that to be the case. The only place and I say this with tremendous respect because I’ve done a lot of work with Jewish philanthropy, particularly Orthodox Jewish philanthropy, [Chabad and Aish 00:43:18], you know. There seems to be . . . A Canadian rabbi said that there seems to be a Canadian Orthodox donor and an Israeli Orthodox donor, and the Israelis are much more of what you think of it as an eight, they’re sort of fill the room with their presence. But I don’t . . . So there are some donors that they are donors because they want the ego rewards which is big, that’s a reason for giving.
Steven: The recognition, yeah, yeah.
Marc: But I haven’t seen a consistent . . . I think the problem for us as fundraisers is we start equating certain behaviors with success instead of, and trying to pigeonhole leaders into those things. So, yeah, there are some really driven go-getters. Threes are often CEOs of companies, as are eights. Sevens that are CEOs of companies too long usually find somebody else to be the CEO so they can be the visionary because they are so not into patterns and systems, and they are usually trying to flatten the hierarchy, not increase it. So they want everybody to be on the same plane. So out of the aggressives, threes and eights would be the most typical but I’ve seen a lot of nine CEOs recently, and the last few years I’ve seen a lot of five CEOs. And so there are, yeah, I don’t think it’s just one type.
Steven: And for those people that are the ones who want that recognition, you know, publicly. Any tips there for those folks? It seems like there will be, yeah.
Marc: Well, part of it is you need to get, this is where fundraising is so wonderful to me is that it really forces us to look at our own stories about money, our relationship with money and power and systems because we may be very averse to money. Often fundraisers and board members have grown up in homes where you don’t talk about money and it’s disrespectful, too. It’s the original don’t ask, don’t tell. It’s just something that’s there and whatever. And there’s a lot of shame and guilt that comes along with money or not having it or having it. So, when a donor wants recognition, their name on a wall, their name next to somebody to be part of their group or even the name of the building, that triggers different stories within us that we have to be really aware of, because that isn’t necessarily a bad thing.
And it doesn’t mean it’s laden with all this egotistical narcissism that we maybe projecting on them. It could be that it’s a good business move for them and their community to be seen, or it could be that it’s a good equity stance for them to be seen as, “I’m behind this, this is something that I support.”
Steven: I’m a champion, yeah.
Marc: And it’s hard to know sometimes when we’re dealing with people especially one-on-one or in small groups is my response to that because of what they’re giving me or because of what I’m putting on them. And so that’s where we as fundraisers, one of the reasons I love all these different assessments and typologies is that we really get to, the better we get to being ourselves the more we clear the air so we can actually hear the donor and help them invest in stuff that they value.
Steven: I love it.
Marc: And so the other thing about that . . . Sorry, Steven.
Steven: Yeah, go for it.
Marc: The other thing about it which is a very hard line is never do anything that would break ethics, that’s illegal, or set very bad precedent. If they’re asking to do something in your organization. So there’s this interesting conversation and I might step on the third rail here between donor centricity and community centricity, and I think part of it is I’m really glad the conversation is happening, I’ll start to say that. Because I think there’s this weird mutated Frankensteinian donor centricity which means that the whole nonprofit has to follow the donors.
Steven: Donor worship, yeah.
Marc: Yeah, bow down at the altar of the donor and that’s not it at all. Nonprofits are so bad at communicating with donors. I think donor centricity came up because it was saying, “There’s all this in the nonprofit and there’s the donors, too, and they’re actually part of the nonprofit. They’re not just out there, they’re actually part of the whole mission. We can’t do this, this, we can’t do the nonprofit stuff without having the donors involved as well. So let’s bring them all together.” And so out of the . . . And the organization donors are a healthy part of the organization, I think that is a more centric view of this, but there are some donors that have deep-seated needs, they have unethical ambitions, they have really inappropriate things they put our different fundraisers of different gender identities in really bad places, and none of those is worth any gift. And if you’re an organization that’s telling you that it’s worth a gift to flaunt yourself that way, I would really encourage you to seek other organizations because there’s a lot of nonprofits in the world.
Steven: So . . .
Marc: Sorry, soapbox. Wow, I’ve got a lot of soapboxes of this.
Steven: That’s how we’re doing it. And that dovetailed in my next question which is it seems like it’s impossible to not talk about the subject of burn out in this context, right? I don’t know another sector where people get burnt out faster and maybe that’s just because that’s a sector I’m in and what I see the most of. And it seems like a lot of these personality types are more prone to burnt out. What can people do to prevent that?
Marc: Well, part of it, yeah, that’s so good, so perceptive. And fundraisers and executive directors and CEOs of corporations, the higher you go up in organizational structure in Western culture, the more isolated you get. So it seems like, and the more people trust you. Well, you’ve been promoted so you must have the goods to get things done. Just in the time when the reason you’ve been good is because you’ve been sparring with people and had been able to have back and forth, and all of a sudden they’re all hands off, or they’ve hired you. You’ve had years of success and so they’re not pushing back anymore in ways that you found fun. And if you’re an eight and you’re a leader, for you, you just want someone else to push back. So, if you’re dealing with an eight, they don’t necessarily want to prove right or wrong, they just wanted to know that somebody else has a backbone and has passion. If you answer them with passion, they totally respect you in a different way and that freaks out most of the people.
So, as a seven, I’m next to eight and I just didn’t know, I didn’t realize I was doing this but I was working with the board chair who was very much a pusher. He had a very bossy personality and had been very high and successful in the military, and was working with another military leader in the nonprofit, and understood chain of command and all. And so I would respond to that trying to speak his dialect of pushing back. But I tried to also let him know that I didn’t, I wasn’t trying to usurp him. I wasn’t going over him. Organizationally, he was the board chair, I was the outside consultant but I would push back and it was fun at one point to see him back me up in a meeting when his staff had thought I was ruining my relationship with him because they just didn’t understand.
I’m not conflict-averse but it’s because I think I’m so close to an eight on the Enneagram scale. So burn out, part of why I love the Enneagram, too, is that there’s in the paths, in the different arrows there are paths to growth. One of the reasons I talk about fives a lot is as a seven when I’m getting in a better space it’s when I’m moving more towards a five. But I’m able to have this objective, time, be alone, not need extra simulation, not any caffeine or new, exciting tech toys or something around me or social media, just check the social media feed all the time. So I know, for me, that’s something I need.
If you’re an aggressive, one of the things that you can do to help avoid burn out is learn to be withdrawn. I think that would be the first place to go because that’s probably the most opposite. What I’ve heard a lot about in pandemic is meditation for all types. There’s something brain-wise about the stress, that cortisol, like if you . . . Cortisol helps you focus. Jessica Sharp of Sharp Brain Consulting talks about how . . . Have you had her on?
Steven: No, I need to.
Marc: Okay. She’s amazing. You should, yeah, that would be a very . . . We can make that connection happen. Dilates your pupils and helps you focus and push out everything around you so you can just focus which is incredibly helpful, until it’s not because when it’s just there it cuts off all executive functions. So you don’t think about the higher things, you just start reacting. I see that a lot in social media. So, anyway, so aggressives, avoiding burn out could be building that space. You know, and dependents, it could be trying . . . Withdrawing would definitely be trying to take action. Find safe places where you can take action that doesn’t cost you your job and that when things don’t always go the way it is or you don’t have it all figured out and it still works, that’s why I love.
If you’re a boss is listening right now, I love it when staff has a side hustle because there, it’s not so much a threat to the organization as long as they’re doing their job and meeting their goals. They’re improving in learning skills that are directly transferrable to most any job that you’ve hired them to do and they’re learning it in a way that is ultimate responsibility for them. If they’re not getting results, they can’t blame a boss or someone else if they’re doing their side hustles, so I think that’s a very healthy thing. And if I . . .
Steven: That control, like it’s theirs and . . .
Marc: Yeah, and they can realize, “Oh, I’m much better.” I remember when I joined a hospital team, I was a much better employee because I’ve been on my own and I realized pushing the pencils around on my desk doesn’t raise money. Repolishing that paragraph does not raise money. I need to get out there, I need to get asks out there, and I need to track the asks because I’m ask-reluctant so I need to keep myself focused on how many asks I’m going to make, not how many friends. Friends don’t give money, donors do. So then dependent would be trying to probably experience either aggressive or withdrawn but it’s a burn out.
The last thing I would say with burn out and I’ve taken your verbal cues that I might be going too long on this. If you’ve ever listened to NPR, they are so fun to listen to the hosts like [coughs] you know, do little things like that and trying to cut off the monologuer.
But with burn out, I think one of the things is, for all of our types, to actually believe that we are worth taking a stand and taking care of ourselves. I think that’s really hard for most of us because we’re so, especially in the nonprofit sector, we want everybody else to succeed. And so an easy way to do that that I could leave with you for this session could be to block time on your calendar as appointments with yourself. I know one nonprofit who I am so thrilled with this development director requires, and his job description requires every staff in the development office take two hours of training every week. They do two hours of development, some sort of professional development, reading, webinars, something. And that may not be the best place for you to start if you don’t have that power to make that decision, but half hour on company time reading a book about something that’s beneficial to you could be just a start of trying to exercise that muscle of self-care.
Steven: I love it. I think withdrawn five, I can speak to the power of a side gig. I think I’ve always had some side hustle. In fact, Bloomerang was a side hustle at one point in the early days, so yeah.
Marc: Oh, that’s so cool.
Steven: It’s very helpful. I mean I wrote a book, that was like the ultimate . . .
Marc: I know, that’s so cool. Yes.
Steven: I won’t say I recommend that but yeah.
Marc: I know, I can’t stop writing them but yeah, I don’t necessarily recommend it either.
Steven: Speaking of verbal cues, can you talk about body language a little bit? You know, we’re kind of in a virtual world where maybe we don’t see those things.
Marc: I’d love to, let’s do it.
Steven: Yeah. And maybe in an email or chat only world, some of those things are missed, right, because we’re not in person together. What are the things we should be looking out for?
Marc: I think that’s one of the things where we could use some self-care of just when we get an email, maybe being with a little bit more withdrawing before we respond to it or text. I consistently misread emails and voicemails. And that’s why you’ll find extroverted people, centered people putting a lot of exclamation marks or smiley faces and stuff because print looks so unemotional and they want, you know, I’m still your friend, I still like you.
So part of it is using, making sure if you’re using your hands on a Zoom call or some sort of visual training, making sure you’re using them above the screen. Because if you’re down here using your hands, nobody can see it and it could look really weird. So make sure you have it in the view of that and so that’s where you can just play with your camera angle, whether you have a Zoom or not. And that you saw, maybe you saw that, I think I can make this go back a little bit, I’m not sure. But, anyway, so that’s one thing. What was it, the more the question about it, just how do you do it in a virtual environment?
Steven: Yeah. And when you’re not, what are maybe some of the body, the signals that you should also be looking for?
Marc: I have noticed that I found myself using freezing differently. And I’ve always been the type of fundraiser when I was doing major gifts full time of letting the calendar be a reason why a donor couldn’t meet with me. Like, hey, would your schedule permit us to get together? I know that that’s not a good sales tactic. I know that there are good fundraisers out there that have a lot of success saying, “No, Steven, I want you to meet with me. And if you don’t, it’s on you. It’s not you can’t get out of this.” But, for me, we’re all busy and so I like to let your schedule be the thing. And I’ve noticed phrases like, “If you can’t get to this, I completely understand,” if I understand. If I can’t understand, I try not to use the word understand but if you can’t get to this that’s totally fine. Trying to give some more grace in my wording because they can’t see the, they can’t hear my voice or see me.
Marc: I wouldn’t do it in a fundraising appeal just for the record. I’m in a fundraising appeal, I’d still be direct and to the point, and doing all the right things, make the ask. I think it’s a sign of respect. When you’re asking somebody for a commitment for any action, be clear with them what you want. So that they can say yes or no because if you’re asking them just to support your cause, they may think that’s a $15 gift and you’re thinking 15,000. And I was joking earlier this week, I can’t read my wife’s mind of 25 years. Why would I expect a donor to be able to read mind about what I was asking?
Steven: Like after a week, yeah. I love it. Yeah. I just got an email on Saturday where the subject line was like, “Don’t open this on the weekend, it’s not urgent.” And I was just, I’ve never gotten anything like that.
Marc: Did you open it?
Steven: Of course.
Marc: Of course.
Steven: I’m a total, you know, I’m not normal so . . .
Marc: So that’s another thing with language though. Setting expectations is really important and then helping with burn out. I try not, I do work all the time, that’s just how I am and I’ve set up our family rhythms and stuff. I like that. It’s life-giving to me. But I try not to respond to client work at hours that I don’t want them to respond back to me. And then with my team, the VAs that I work with, I’ll send things and I’ll try to, I haven’t put in the subject, I’ll try that next. But I try to put things like, “I really hope you’re not seeing this until Monday morning.”
Marc: Because I want it out there but I don’t want, so I can get it off my emotional load but I don’t expect them to get it done. And I think that’s one of the hardest things as you move in management of people is that people don’t do things the way you do, and that’s probably why you’ve hired them. So that’s probably if we would be able to give a little bit more grace for that would be good.
Steven: I love it. Marc, what a fun convo. Any final thoughts? It’s almost 3:00. I’ll give you the last word.
Marc: Yeah, it is. I can’t believe an hour has gone by. If anybody wants to get in touch with me, it’s firstname.lastname@example.org, so Marc with a C. Boy, I’m having trouble today with this camera thing.
Steven: You just had it.
Marc: @concordleadershipgroup.com. I’m on Twitter and you’ll send out the slides, too, right?
Steven: I’ll send out the slides, recording. Anything that folks want they can get it from me, right? I mean really anything.
Marc: And I guess my last word for everybody that’s listening and it looks like we’ve had a lot of people stick around so I really appreciate that, too, is thank you. If we’ve learned nothing else in the last six months, it’s that nonprofits are vital to the way we’ve structured society. And whether that’s right structuring of society or wrong, thank you for being a part of that vitality. Thank you for being, connecting the glue. Thank you for giving sanity to donors that are overwhelmed by problems that they don’t know how to help but donating to your organization whatever the cause is has been a tangible way of them feeling like they have some sense of control in the world. So thank you because you’re making the world a much better place. I really appreciate that.
Steven: Thanks, Marc. You’re awesome. This is fun. Thanks for all of you for hanging out. Like I said, I’ll be sending everything out later this afternoon. And we got a couple of webinars next week on Tuesday. We’re going to talk about capital campaigns, so specifically for you folks who maybe in the midst of one, maybe it was kind turned upside down since March. We’re going to have some good advice from Kevin and Carlyn talking about capital campaigns. If you’re not into capital campaign, it’s okay. We got other webinars that we’re going to be doing. I don’t know why you wouldn’t be into capital campaign. It’s such a fun, fun, exciting topic. But lots of other sessions coming up here, we’ll be doing two to three webinars a week till the end of the year so there will be something for everybody.
So, hopefully, we see you again on another session. So we’ll call it a day there. Have a good rest of your Thursday. Have a good weekend, stay safe. We’re all thinking about you, echoing Marc’s sentiments, we need you out there. So do the meditation, stretch into the other personality type, whatever you need to do to stay productive. But thanks for listening, we’ll see you later. Thanks for being here. Bye now.